More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:50 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Shoulders down, chest round elbows down, not particular to Taichi.


Han xiong ba bei, hollow chest raise back, is a movement, not a stationary position. The latter is a common mistake. It means bring power through the back using spinal movement. This is a common principle for all IMA, but IMO, body mechanics can be very different for different arts.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:41 pm

Ok
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby I-mon on Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:35 pm

The scapula (shoulder blades) can be raised, lowered, retracted (pulled back), protracted (pulled forward), and rotated. They can make circular movements in all three planes, or not. What's the big deal?
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby AllanF on Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:07 am

Echoing what Wanderingdragon has written, the principles for all IMA are universal regardless of who wrote it. (Besides which at the opening of the clips it quite clearly states Taijiquan in the bottom right corner, as a result i presume he either agrees that IMA shenfa is universal or is well versed in taijiquan...)
Xie's shoulders do not rise as in the OP.

I-mon; yes the shoulders can move in all directions but raising the shoulder like that mean the structure is compromised. Anyone can be compromised but how you get out of it is key, (this is a co-operative demo so shouldn't happen in the first place), shoulder should relax into elbow (not drive into the contact point). Elbow and hand should not move in the same linear path, the contact point should be neutral with yin and yang moving in opposite directions around the point...not in a linear manner, linear means no spiral; bagua is all about spiral movement, as are all IMA.

The danger of a counter can be seen i this clip at the 0:57sec mark. Note: not exactly the same technique being applied but the jins are very similar, and it is not baguazhang, or even CIMA...but the principles ARE universal.



However that is my last post on the matter, if people are happy then that is all that matters at the end of the day and i hope that every one continues to enjoy their training.
Last edited by AllanF on Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:46 am

Bao wrote:
Wanderingdragon wrote:Shoulders down, chest round elbows down, not particular to Taichi.


Han xiong ba bei, hollow chest raise back, is a movement, not a stationary position. The latter is a common mistake. It means bring power through the back using spinal movement. This is a common principle for all IMA, but IMO, body mechanics can be very different for different arts.


When linguistics and jargon become obstacles to fact points, I just step out. -shrug- -bow-
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:05 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:
Bao wrote:
Wanderingdragon wrote:Shoulders down, chest round elbows down, not particular to Taichi.


Han xiong ba bei, hollow chest raise back, is a movement, not a stationary position. The latter is a common mistake. It means bring power through the back using spinal movement. This is a common principle for all IMA, but IMO, body mechanics can be very different for different arts.


When linguistics and jargon become obstacles to fact points, I just step out. -shrug- -bow-


You can call it what you want and you are entitled to step out whenever you wish.
I do base everything I write on personal experience and on my personal belief. There's no jargon involved and I am not trying to push my opinion upon anyone. If it sounds like that it's just because I believe that this is important stuff. You can believe whatever you wish. Sorry if I offended you or something like that. However, I do understand that this discussion is not appreciated, so I will just stfu for the moment and leave space for you or anyone else who have more valuable things to add.

Peace bro! :)
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Andy_S on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:10 am

Great stuff: really like Brinkman's exposition of applications, especially the use of pull rather than simply of punch/strike. And how these various pulls are further weaponized by the use of the stepping patterns.

Personally, I could not give a flying toss about his shoulders: The gold here is the ideas on use, not the shenfa.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:11 am

It's just that the Chinese phrase you translated has nothing to do with the concepts were addressing. Or should I say the phrase you translated also applies the universal concepts we are discussing.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:55 am

I accept your view. Thanks for letting me know.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:29 pm

Proper posture is necessary for smooth breathing is necessary for proper circulation is necessary for power is necessary for ease of force. Any kink in such structure is the same as folding a garden hose. Not my view physical reality.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:47 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Proper posture is necessary for smooth breathing is necessary for proper circulation is necessary for power is necessary for ease of force. Any kink in such structure is the same as folding a garden hose. Not my view physical reality.


Your view lies in what you believe creates kinks in a structure. In my own view, using scapula or shoulder is not the same as compromising structure. But I'm really not into gardening, so if you want to discuss hoses I'll have to pass.

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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:23 pm

Yes I see, you really don't understand -shrug-
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:41 pm

If that is what you believe, fine with me.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:08 pm

I've watched it over and over, I'm sorry to belabor the subject, but I just don't see anywhere where the shoulder rise up around his neck or above his collar bone, where his elbows rise up like chicken wings nor any type of arch in his back, just as in the pei clip, I only see unified movement.
Just a cursory google search
"One of the greatest benefits of practicing internal martial arts comes from the growing sense of strength and union of internal and external well-being.

In Wang Shujin’s book, Bagua Linked Palms, the author explores the basic principles of Bagua Zhang, a Chinese internal martial art that gained popularity in the waning years of Manchu Dynasty under Master Dong Haiquan. Many famous martial artists have studied Bagua under Master Dong, including Cheng Tinghua, Yin Fu, Liang Zhenpu, Sung Yongxiang, and the author’s teacher, Zhang Zhaodong.

As in many theories and practices of martial arts, Bagua’s basic principles work to create a balanced and flowing Qi (chi), combining both mental and physical exercises together, through precise stances and movements.

Here are just a few of the simple, yet profound principles presented in Bagua Linked Palms for you to try on your own:

Empty Spirit, Raise Energy: Keep the head erect and straighten the back of the neck. The back of the head should float upward, but it should be held naturally. Keep your gaze level.

Contain Chest, Pull up Back: Keep the upper body erect. Do not pull up the chest. Wrap the shoulders inward and round the back. The chest is held comfortably; Qi should flow easily.

Draw Together Lower Abdomen: The dantian is a good place to accumulate Qi. Keep the lower abdomen empty so Qi can sink. This is not achieved by hollowing the abdomen but by turning the upper thighs slightly inward and dropping the coccyx, which draws the area in and down. This is also called embracing the belly.

Breath Slowly and Gradually: Breathe through the nose; do not use the mouth. The breath must be slow and even like a cloud floating in the sky.

Coccyx Upright: From the neck to the tip of the coccyx you must be extended and erect. This will allow the spinal nerves to function normally during exercise, and your reflexes will be unimpeded and lively."
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

Postby escher on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:46 am

Hey guys, I had the chance to talk to Marcus about this... he wanted to reply himself, but he hasn't been able to access his account. He wrote the following and said he will respond in greater detail when he can access his account.

====================================

Hello and thanks for your interest in my vid clips. As for quality, I am aware that these clips are rather amateur-istic, but they are for the most part, clips that didn’t make it into the primary video series I am working on, to explain the theory and concepts of “the three gates.

Anyway, as for the shoulder lift (violation?) question.. if need be, I’ll make another vid to demonstrate why it is not a violation, however I think that has been addressed rather well by Bao, Bishop BC, Shawn and a few others. Anyway just to set the record straight, what some would call a “shoulder lift structure violation”, I would call “ba bei”. This “ba bei” lifts then overturns into a han xiong formation. In fact, that dynamic is key to providing passage through the arched terrain of the jade pillow region. This is a actually a key part of the “three gate entrainment method., which started my little video series on youtube.

As I demonstrate in that fist clip, this pulling up of the back is actuated as the chin is tucked in, causing a slight vertical elongation of the cervical segment. Any one can try this very slowly, while sitting or standing and immediately experience this natural lift as well as the spinal entrainment it produces. When it is held in place, at the peak of this entrainment, it is called “ding” or brace-ing. That doesn’t mean however to keep it in place as you begin moving, it is only to show you how to get to the top before you release. There is also a lifting of the intestines and the chest but they as well should not be suspended as a rule. They lift and drop with the spinal wave, breath and intention.

At any rate, three gates theory and practice is often contained with the different variations of “guihe gung” or “guihe huxi fa”, the turtle crane qigong breathing methods. Many internal and external martial art systems have some variety of guihe gung.. In regard to both Bagua and Xingyi “ba bei” is generally associated with Tiger pouncing motion, which is central to Xingyi’s rise, fall, overturn sequence. Tiger neck is thus the wave rising upward causing the chin to tucks in, …just before the release into an overturn han xiong formation.

With that said, I think “Bao” nailed it… and I can’t say it much better than he…but in usage “han xiong ba bei” is meant to describe the fluid motion between those two shapes.. they are like yin and yang counterparts. .. Ba bei meaning “to pull up the back” is a movement dynamic …however it not only pulls up the back, it will lift the body right towards the crown of the head (baihui pt). At that point however, the lift turns over and drops downward, completing the circuit. If you look at my clip again, you will notice I tuck my chin to retract back and up, in order to roll over his arm and then apply downward power. It is actually the intent which initiates that elevation, however the chain of structural adjustments may be traced by following the slight tuck of the chin, in which case it motivates the body to retract or lift upward through the spine.

To contain the chest, “han xiong” on the other hand tends to open the sacral lumbar back gate and actually cause the wave motion to move downward, toward the back of the body. Han xiong ba bai is a mechanocal dynamic which occurs in even regular walking.

In Bagua there is a kind of special training used in cultivating this continuous lift and drop and consequent opening and closing of the spine, while walking the circle. If you watch my videos ..No.1 is specifically about the han xiong ba bei movement dynamic and development.

In my experience this particular, vertical three gate movement theory is more commonly found in Xingyi and Bagua systems… whereas Taiji generally rotates the gates along around the vertical axis, on a horizontal plane of movement. Both of these gate entrainment methods are however important from an internal martial arts point of view. As for Xingyi, this movement is also explicit within the very first element “Pi” chopping fist. as you draw the hands in and rotate the spine, the lift, twist and suspension is created and then released as the hands complete the chopping movement.

If the “han xiong ba bei” movement is not activated correctly it will definitely cause confusion as regards the lower lumbar / sacral back gate as well. I know plenty of old taiji hippies that walk around with their hips tucked under, in order to demonstrate how long and straight their spines are (spinal envy?). This alleviation of the spinal arches is a good way to prepare for eventual back surgery, but not much else. Teaching people these subtle spinal articulation methods are generally the best remedy for repairing the damage as is it original purpose. Without such lumbar sacral articulation the power of the legs and lower body will not transfer power efficiently through the back and into the extremities.

There is a lot more to say, especially in terms of how this is related to the cultivation of spiraling motion… for another day.
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