Ten Celestial Stems

[kenneth fish]

[XiaoXiong]

Hmm that isn't what we call them. The list goes ban, kan, tiao, zhuang, kou, beng, zhua, ye, cuo, and song. The first nine have two parts and song has six. So twenty four exercises. Luo performs some on the Dan Miller PKC journal videos.
Jess

[XiaoXiong]

Seems quite different from what Ken Fish posted. Can go into more detail later.
Jess

[kenneth fish]

The section called "song" (the last exercise on the tape) was not a part of the Ten Celestial Stems in Master Zhang's school. Most of the other exercises have several variations. I am aware that the exercises are taught differently in Hong Yixiang's line, as well as other lines. For the most part it is not a matter of ommission, but of accretion - more moves and exercises being taught under the same heading. The exercise we called "diao" 刁 is called "tiao" 挑 in the video (however, the alternating hand variation of the downward press is also called "tiao" in some schools) . The gent in the video is performing the following movements (per the subtitles and the Hokkien voice over) with variations (large and small frame) : Kan, Tiao (which he alternately also calls Diao), Zhuang, Beng, Zhua, Ye, and Song.

As for the PKC Journal - I am very familiar with it - it was a joint project between Dan and myself.

All of which is besides the point , as I said in my post above:

"Andy: As I said, there are more than a few things wrong with this performance - but that was not the point. The set is designed to be trained in deep, long stances - and to develop some kinds of mechanical strength that cannot be developed in low, short stances (there is separate work done in low, narrow stances). I would be curious to see what other variations are out on the net - but again, as I said, this is also the way the set is trained in Tianjin, and for the same reason. I have seen some clips where the Tian Gan are presented in an ordinary standing posture, or even presented as a Qigong exercise - and that is one of the reasons I dug this clip up and posted it. If one is not training the set for what it was designed for, and in the manner it was designed to be trained, then one will not gain the mechanical skills the set is designed to impart."

The names and the order of the movements are irrelevant. The real purpose of the exercises is to develop several kinds of strength and coordination. At the intermediate to advanced level the movements incorporate a combination of torque (niujing) and wave-like movement - among others - so that the performer seems to have the sort of undulating muscular quality of a snake, rippling from foot to hand.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
the performer seems to have the sort of undulating muscular quality of a snake, rippling from foot to hand.
SNIP

Yes, interesting quality of movement. I have seen glimpses of it in Hong Ihsiangs movement, and in one Chen master who visited us. But it is not common, even though many people do these (and similar) exercises. And I don't think that these exercises are hellaciously hard: Anyone in average-to-good shape should be able to do them to a reasonable standard after a few months of dedicated practice. .

[shawnsegler]

And I don't think that these exercises are hellaciously hard: Anyone in average-to-good shape should be able to do them to a reasonable standard after a few months of dedicated practice. .

I beg to differ. The guy doing the exercises in the vid isn't doing them in the correct fashion and to do them in the correct fashion is pretty rough.

They are a fat wad of bitter to be eaten.

Best,

S

[XiaoXiong]

It seems like its not just the names and orders which are different but also your descriptions of the exercises are different. This seems very relevant to me, as Luo got the Gao system he has from not one source but from an amalgamation of Zhang's senior students. I have to wonder if maybe you got a different version of the tian gan to mark your students, as apparently others like Allan Pittman did. Obviously Luo being the president of the Yi Zong Bagua federation has verified his versions with countless senior students of Zhang Zhun Feng, so I would venture to guess that his version is the right one. It also seems that this side of the subject is one you would like to avoid for, the defensive tone of your original post Ken. Given what I've heard about your time with Zhang and Xu Bao Mei, I find your version of history on the subject suspicious to say the least.
Jess

[kenneth fish]

I first met Luo Dexiu in 1977 when he came to visit Mrs. Zhang during our class at the school on Xinyi Road. He came to ask instruction in a number of things, and what he was interested in that day was the Ten Celestial Stems, which we were working on. We met again in the early 1990's when he came to visit my school in Gaithersburg, and we compared notes on a number of things - we were basically on the same page. He also noticed some training equipment in the school that was unique to Master Zhang's studio - and pointed it out to his student who accompanied him. That was the same time frame that the material for the PaKua Journal and the tapes was put together. To the best of my knowlege, we do not have any bones to pick with each other - I certainly do not.

Nowhere do I imply that Luo's versions are incorrect - it is a matter of record that both Hong Yixiang and Hsu Hongchi expanded and modified the sets (as one of Hsu's students noted in this thread). As I noted above, the performer was one of Hong's senior students whom I felt showed the general idea closely enough to use as an example. My point in posting this video was to give an idea of the manner in which the sets should be performed - deep, extended, and with muscular exertion - in order to get the results I described.

I do not know (or care) what you might have heard about my time with my teachers - and would be surprised if anything were first hand. When I was learning from Mrs. Zhang (after Master Zhang's passing) there were only three or four of us learning from her - including two of her sons. My relationships with the Zhang's were very close - they showed me great tolerance and affection, so I find your statement offensive.

As for teaching different versions to "mark" a student - nonsense. Everyone else in the classes at the old school learned the same thing (along with the Master Zhang's children). When Dan Miller went to visit Mrs. Zhang he videotaped a lengthy interview with her about her husband, the school, and their methods. He also asked about my time with them, and she confirmed to him my time, training, and relationship with them. She also demonstrated some of the movements. I am currently converting most of my old VHS material to CD, and I will post the interview in sections at some time in the future (but you will have to translate for yourself - I haven't the time for that)

[Andy_S]

Shawn:

SNIP
They are a fat wad of bitter to be eaten.
SNIP

Well, that was a personal statement: I am 48 (fuck me rigid!) but run for 45 minutes twice a week, do gym twice a week and squeeze MA into the gaps. I have undergone TCMA torture in basic Mantis, and TCMA in Chen Taiji.

I have seen various versions of these exercises. Certainly, they are challenging, but IME, they are not that formidable, compared to (say) army endurance routines, or gymnastics balance/strength/flexibility routines.

Xiaoxiong:

This is purely my own opinion as a "Great Old One" (OMFG) and no offense is intended to your good self.

But...

Ken Fish is a very senior member of this forum - his attendance hereon predates RSF and goes back to the early days of EF - and a great font of info on the last of the giants.

I don't know how long you have been involved in IMA, but I recall some very informative articles by Ken in Inside Kung Fu (which tended, otherwise, to be full of utter fucking shite) back in the late 1980s and early 1990s and never expected to be able to converse with the man himself online. Since joining EF and then RSF, I have found his contributions to be worthwhile even though he he is clearly a busy man.

I have never met him, but it seems to me, from his online interactions that he is also an old-skule gent.

I don't know what you have "heard" (and don't really give a toss) but your comment strikes me as ungentlemanly conduct.

That having been said: Ken hardly needs me (me!) to defend him. He has posted an appropriate response above.

Kindly take all the above for what it is worth. And as I said - no offense is intended.

Ken:

I hope the above outlines my respect for your training, background and knowledge.

That having been said:

In this day and age, why not post some film of your good self? I recall that some years ago Graham (I think) disseminated some film of you and you took offense While this is certainly your prerogative, my sense is that you have a lot to offer, and while I understand you have faced some significant health challenges, I think there are a goodly number of well-intentioned peeps who would appreciate some film.

Anyway - merely a suggestion.

[shawnsegler]

Andy: I'm not up on my high horse about it or anything. I also am a very active 46 year old with years of regular practice in ICMA torture exercises and while I was able to jump right into these, it still took about 9 months of training them to be introduced how to do them "most effectively" and they kick my ass. Let me say that again...kick my ass.

My point is that they are harder than that video makes them seem. If you ever get a chance to get shown them I think you'll find them much harder than you think. Just saying they are very hard and work the body very, very deeply.

Best,

S

[chud]

...I have to wonder if maybe you got a different version of the tian gan to mark your students, as apparently others like Allan Pittman did.

Seriously?!?

[kenneth fish]

Andy: Thanks.

I am currently working on tapes of foundation skills (sorry, CD's ). I will be offering them for sale some time next year (currently doing "rough draft" versions). My health has been an issue - I do not move as well as I would like to for demonstration purposes, but I feel it is time to get this material out. In addition to CD's on basic foundation skills, alignment training, equipment training, and fighting theory, I am also doing a couple on Indian Clubs, Hammer Exercises (taken from dragon dance training) and old style strength lifting. When I get them in shape I will post clips.

When I was in Taiwan this past March I spent about a week hanging out with Dragon and Lion dance troupes....some great stuff going on there, a lot of very traditional martial arts foundation training going on with the better troupes. I demonstrated the hammer exercises - everyone recognized them, although only a couple of the troupes train them (the Dragon and Lion heads are lighter than they used to be by about half, but they are still a good work out by themselves.)

Shawn is right - just looking at the exercises doesn't really give enough of an idea of how grueling they are if they are done with the right mechanics. I think a good analogy in terms of looking deceptively easy would be Indian clubs - I normally swing 2 1/2 pound clubs. My students are weight lifters who are far stronger than me. They find the 1 pound clubs, done with the right form, exhausting and painful at first.

Lastly, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the Ten Celestial Stems exercises are not unique to Gao style Bagua, or Bagua in general. They seem to be local to the Tianjin region and points North, and fairly common. The individual movements may vary, but the mechanics are generally the same. My own take is that they may have been popularized by the Tongbei crowd, who have an extensive set of similar exercises. The Song exercise is a basic Tongbei drill. I have also seen identical exercises practiced by ErLang and other Dongbei area systems. There are, however, at least among the Gao and Cheng style teachers in Tianjin, additional drills that seem to be unique - again practiced in the same manner, but clearly Bagua movement drills.

[chud]

Thanks for all your patient contributions to the forum Dr Fish.

[kenneth fish]

Thank you!

[Andy_S]

Shawn and Ken:

RE: Difficulty of these exercises
Fair enough to ye both. But until and unless I learn otherwise (and I regularly do various exercises that are VERY similar to the above) I will stick with my opinion.

Which is not to say I don't think such exercises are not useful: These are the building blocks of most credible CEMA or CIMA. It is just my opinion that most reasonably fit people will be able to do them (as Shawn mentions above).

I would add that that most grueling fucking physical training I have done in my life was (Northern Mantis) stance training and that involved virtually NO movement...

Ken:

Corking news, get those CDs out, squire! I for one will be a customer (and I rarely buy MA media these days).

Non-denominational CMA foundation exercises and tactical concepts are gold dust, and need to be more widely understood in an MA community that (quite reasonably, given the shite-awful state of 99 percent of "traditional" Asian MA) sees MMA as the be-all and end-all of combat training.