Ten Celestial Stems

[GrahamB]

Can I ask - are you supposed to move from the hips, or from the dantien when performing these exercises?

[Wanderingdragon]

You move the same way as if you were on your back, now, is that from your hips or your Dantien ?

[kenneth fish]

This is not an instructional tape (and it is rife with things I would not suggest copying). In addition, there is a quite a lot of mechanical work that has to be learned before doing this exercise - so again, I would not treat this as an instructional tape.

[GrahamB]

This is not an instructional tape (and it is rife with things I would not suggest copying). In addition, there is a quite a lot of mechanical work that has to be learned before doing this exercise - so again, I would not treat this as an instructional tape.

Sure, but my question is not about wanting to copy or learn from a tape, it's about the 'philosophy' of the exercises:


Re: Ten Celestial Stems
by GrahamB on Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:11 pm
Can I ask - are you supposed to move from the hips, or from the dantien when performing these exercises?

[Deadmonki]

Thanks for posting this Dr Fish, most interesting.

[wayne hansen]

i originally learnt them this way but hsu hong chi later changed them to be more hsing i
the ones done from a small stance like the opening tai chi stance have 3 methods
waist only hips locked
shifting stance with waist
whole body rotating hips
and then like done in the clip above from a long stance

[allen2saint]

Ah. Robert Smith's second edition of his Bagua book has all these movements in there, performed to the best of his memory and understanding, which are pretty darn close, really.

[Andy_S]

Ken:

Thanks for posting and nice to see, but I am not desperately impressed: his rear leg seems to be awry in several movements. There are other clips on YouTube of these exercises performed with (to my eye) more orthodoxy to principle and with more authority.

And IME, low and SHORT stances are far more difficult to carry off than are low and LONG stances (as seen in this clip).

Certainly keeping the spine vertical requires awareness, concentration and strength in the lower back, lower abdomen and inner/upper thigh. (And for years I struggled with getting rid of a very slight forward bend at the hips in lower stances.)

But do you emphasize a vertical spine at ALL times? Do you not practice any kind of gather (mingmen back, upper spine bows) and release (mingmen flattens, upper spine unbows)?

Graham:

RE: Hips or dantien?
Very good question. I don't practice these particular exercises, but do a number of similar ones; perhaps someone else with knowledge of these will chime in.

But I would hazard a guess:
At a more intermediate-advanced stage, the idea is to move from the dantien, not the hips. This is where you start to see the pelvis tilt forward and back, sending a wave up the back (vertical); or you see a rotation around the spinal axis (horizontal) rather than a gross movement of the hips.

Hence in (say) the Chen punch, the hips don't rotate; the power comes up the spine after the dantien unrolls. (I know this forum has issues with Chen Xiaowang - as do I - but his fajing is, IMHO, excellent. Compare the mechanics of his "hidden hand punch" to, say, a boxing cross or a karate reverse punch. Plenty of examples of all of them on YouTube, and the slo-mo button is at your command.)

To me, the spinal work was more interesting to see in the clip than was the length/depth of stance that Ken focuses on in his comments.

IMHO and YMMV.

[kenneth fish]

Andy: As I said, there are more than a few things wrong with this performance - but that was not the point. The set is designed to be trained in deep, long stances - and to develop some kinds of mechanical strength that cannot be developed in low, short stances (there is separate work done in low, narrow stances). I would be curious to see what other variations are out on the net - but again, as I said, this is also the way the set is trained in Tianjin, and for the same reason. I have seen some clips where the Tian Gan are presented in an ordinary standing posture, or even presented as a Qigong exercise - and that is one of the reasons I dug this clip up and posted it. If one is not training the set for what it was designed for, and in the manner it was designed to be trained, then one will not gain the mechanical skills the set is designed to impart.

As for hips versus dantian - the answer is neither. I would, however, be very interested if you were to start a separate thread describing the anatomacal structure of the dantian and how it might motivate movement in the rest of the body (again, that is not the point of this thread. My intent was to give a general idea of how the set was intended to be trained. )

[Andy_S]

Ken:

Fair enough.

Interesting set of exercises, and there are many variants - Luo Deziu has a tape out covering many of these.

IIRC, Smith's first bagua book was devoted exclusively to these exercises and their applications.

[wayne hansen]

I would love to see Lou do them

[Bill]

Can anyone name all ten for me? Back when I learned and practiced them we just ran through them without naming the individual moves.

Thanks.

I plan to start another thread on how they were altered and refering to them by their names will be helpful.

[kenneth fish]

Lets see....Al, Jimmy, and Harry - oh, wait, that's the Ritz Brothers....er, Manny, Moe, and Jack...eh, no, that's the Pep Boys....Harpo, Chico, Groucho, Gummo, and Zeppo....no, that's not right either...oh - here it is:
These are the Chinese characters, phonetics, and English names of the movements

1. 砍 Kan - to hack
2. 搬 Ban - to move by lifting or carrying
3. 按 An - to press down with the hand
4. 斜挂 Xie Gua - Gua is a kind of chopping maneuver. Xie Gua is chopping in a lateral plane.
5. 扚 Diao - to strike quickly (a quick block with the back of the wrist moving immediately to a palm strike)
6. 掖 Ye - extended bow stance and palm strike (rotate around the central axis and extend)
7. 插抓 Cha Zhua - thrusting with a spear hand upwards, then horizontal, then down. Variation - thrust and grasp
8. 崩 Beng - vertical punches in a horse stance
9. 挫 Cuo - to push down, grind (variations on palm strikes in a deep horse stance)
10. 撞 zhuang - to crash into - double palm strikes in bow stances

[allen2saint]

Lol...Nice one Dr. Fish. I'll see your martial arts stand up act any time.

[Bill]

The Ritz Brothers ? That's going back aways.

Thanks for the list.