Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby GrahamB on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:57 pm

Bao wrote:Nice! Thanks for sharing.

GrahamB wrote:Getting more into the wrestling side has really changed my view of push hands - you really realise how available the single leg is most of the time, and the clinch. But anyway I also feel that once you get into that stuff you drift away from push hands too, so it's swings and roundabouts....


Some wrestling methods, Baoding SC for instance, can be very soft and sensative. So why must there be any conflict between the different methods?


Nothing to do with sensitivity, or lack of, but to do with range.

I believe the point of push hands is to become adept at controlling and sensitivity in a kind of middle range (that's also good for striking). Grappling develops it at zero distance in a clinch, or from further out.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby middleway on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:55 am

daniel pfister,

Great way to train mate, keep it up!

WW,

Could you post some video of your 'free' push hands training. Thanks.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby RobP2 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:10 am

What would be useful is if people who critique other peoples' video clips as not being internal enough, etc, could post some clips of their own work to illustrate their critique. And I mean own work rather than just posting someone else's video clip which may address a different situation altogether. Everyone has a camera on their phone these days, right?
Last edited by RobP2 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby emptycloud on Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:10 am

daniel pfister wrote:
Dmitri wrote:Thanks for posting; always good to see PH in that format (i.e. with striking, etc. allowed)

What's the other guy's experience/which MA(s)?


Several other martial arts I think. Lately, he said he's been training a lot of aikido, so at least he can take a fall ;)


Good point. I was practicing tai chi with my aikido teacher in the local park the other night. We like to finish up with a little scrapping. I took a couple of swift hip throws and landed on relatively hard ground fairly fast. Got up and just got stuck in again.

It wasn't until I was half way home that it dawned on me, that hitting the hard ground didn't ruffle my brain one bit. It felt normal and no big deal.
My teacher has drummed break falling into me a lot over the years. Claims it could save your life.

I would urge all martial artists to work on their break fall/rolling skills regularly, I know this is an understatement. I'm just feeling chatty today.

see ya

Rich

(Ps Allan F... man I have been busy.. catch ya one day)
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:28 am

RobP2 wrote:What would be useful is if people who critique other peoples' video clips as not being internal enough, etc, could post some clips of their own work to illustrate their critique. And I mean own work rather than just posting someone else's video clip which may address a different situation altogether. Everyone has a camera on their phone these days, right?


You'd think, eh? ;)
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:02 am

GrahamB wrote:I believe the point of push hands is to become adept at controlling and sensitivity in a kind of middle range (that's also good for striking). Grappling develops it at zero distance in a clinch, or from further out.

Ok thanks for explaining your thoughts.

IME PH is very good practice at grappling range. I know that many people like to control the distance and keep outside close range. All distances are fine with me.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby Adam S on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:48 am

Nice clip thnx for sharing

at the start I was thinking 'get in more and finish him off' but you were doing that more at the end

couple of times I thought you 'held' his tension instead of flowing around it-easier said than done tho

again nice stuff
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:46 am

windwalker wrote:what is called push hands imo, should train some very specific attributes noted for taiji.


It's not a PH demo or a specific PH drill. It's free play. You can use free train to test what you have trained, but some things that you have trained are often less articulated in fre play. It will always have a different look than pure demos and pure drills.

those talking about striking, wrestling ect. I never quite understand their point.
people have different practices working on different things why call it "pushhands" in light of what they
do in "catch wrestling"


If you can't use PH skills to defend yourself from strikes and wrestling, then what's the point of practicing PH?

for example would you say or any that posted say, that the "dantien" was used as suggested in the other threads
on it?


How could you see a dan tian being used? Do you suggest no shirts and a close up pick of a nude stomach? Well, put in a well trained tai chi chic then and I might watch it.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:25 am

If you can't use PH skills to defend yourself from strikes and wrestling, then what's the point of practicing PH?

for example would you say or any that posted say, that the "dantien" was used as suggested in the other threads
on it?

How could you see a dan tian being used? Do you suggest no shirts and a close up pick of a nude stomach? Well, put in a well trained tai chi chic then and I might watch it.
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the point of practicing push hands?
you mean like to understand what force is, and how not to use ones own force, to make clear what force is, and what "IP" is,
to understand the distinctions between the two,
its this what you mean?

dantian usage, "bodywork" had a good test by suggesting not to use the hands, and see
if control could be established by just using the body. He might have some other test it would be good to read them.

we do some of the same things not directly related to the dantian per say but more of a larger outlook concerning intent,
projecting the center, understanding what empty means, how its used, and how empty can not be totally empty, how full can not be totally full.
how they both can be part of the same or separated.

the OP, invited critiques of the clip. when offered I guess unless they'er good, the critique itself comes under attack. strange
even though I am sometimes asked to judge some local ph hand events and have done so in the past, I'm not a big fan of them nor really support them,
but understand the perceived need for those marketing taiji.

IMO, taiji should be able to stand on its own with out any need for an event that tends to isolate it, and promotes rule sets that foster the event,
not necessarily taiji.

the point of ph hands, IMO was, is for the development, and understanding taiji ideas and principles in use under a somewhat controlled condition.
when this forces is lost as IMO this thread, it becomes "almost sparring" but not really

in this clip the OP center has already displaced the other, at that point its kind of pointless to continue.
the OP is leaning or what we call bracing in order to bring his center into the other. How many here feel this a good idea?

There are points in the clips where clearly the OP has stopped following, or leading, and just chooses to drag the other into what ever the
OP wants to do, works with someone who doesnt know what to do, against a more skilled person would it work as well?

other points where the OP slapped or touches the others face, would the same be done had the other been say a boxer?
does anyone think or feel that they will slap a boxers face in the same manor in "training"

the title says "push hands" which to me is a type of training mainly associated with taiji practices.
if it was called "rolling" and someone did something other then "rolling" it would be as had been criticized as in
a recent thread with "jess".

This thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18449
really has a good vibe, one that clearly fosters growth understanding and development "for the most part"
names of tech are used, and shown in a setting that people can understand and relate to. no one has to suggest what, how , or why something is bing used or even weather its used or not, its quite clear to see. It doesnt look much different in usage as whats trained.

none of this directed at the OP, his training or practices only my own view points in response to some questions.
I would hope that all would promote CMA, in a way that fosters it's growth and development or preserves the practices and
traditions.

clips: 8-)

if the ones I post are questioned, wouldn't any I post showing the same things also be questioned?
the point would be?

FWIW: my teacher has been quite about his work, for the last 10yrs I've respected this to the point of not even mentioning his name of using him as a point of reference.
only recently at 93 has he started to be a little more public. When I go back to china, later this yr, I'll have a better sense of how and what to present.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby middleway on Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:18 am

if the ones I post are questioned, wouldn't any I post showing the same things also be questioned?
the point would be?


The reason for posting clips is to show that you yourself are able to demonstrate what you so often discuss. If you are, it will be apparent to those of us who have been training a while i am sure. If you aren't or it has no utility then again this will be apparent.

I am not talking about your teachers material. I am talking about YOUR material and they most definitely are not, one and the same. The art doesn't exist outside of the individuals practicing it ... the art you practice is not your teachers it is yours. So there should be absolutely no problem in you getting a few clips up online. Hell just push hands with someone like the clip in this thread. I am sure no secrets of your teachers will pop out and the tradition be exposed as you play.

If you are convinced by your ideas and feel you are able to demonstrate them, then there shouldn't be an issue. Just like there isn't for those of us here who do post videos.

regards.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby Dmitri on Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:53 am

I can promise you, it wouldn't look very spectacular... :)

Behold (for the umpteenth time), one of my most favorite PH clips of all time (for these very reasons):



When skill levels are close enough and it's not a "demo" but a non-cooperative encounter, things don't look very "good"...
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby wuwei sifu on Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:34 pm

i would guard against the habit of allowing the opponents arms.hands into your body 2here they actually have free shots/can easily attack you.
especially the head and neck areas.

so just because we are not training certain attacks in tui shou doesn't me we can afford to ignore basic defense, and allow self defense no no's to become
learned reflexive behaviour. i alway made it a point to teach my pvt. student that once we were close there were attack options all over the place. I'd show them without disengaging and often while moving into the his space.

so as ideas of attack are explored so to were defensive skills that rely on structure, swing/momentum, balance and a moving root. especially when defending or attacking on one foot because it just happened that way. i wish i could have filmed all the various sessions and lessons tat were in this area of training.

another thing i'd always point out is how to attack the structure of the opponent using your own structure and moving root. literally being able to walk through the opponent's stricture in a very unexpected way. this meant that you have to be/get in close at elbow distance. this can start and be applied at arms length too, but is more difficult to do against a skilled opponent. in close though it's very hard to get away from a body/structure blast. this is why kao is so useful. kao is basically what i'm describing in a way that is applied and thought of slightly differently.

thanks for sharing that clip dude.
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby wuwei sifu on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:02 pm

ok, i saw the old dude the catch...coach; and that is the type of stuff i'm speaking about once ur up close. so much is already there. so when we train we go from the known to the unknown as we go on martial fishing expeditions. of course much of the unknown is just unknown to us at that stage of training. many will find stuff/methods; and have already done so what you are just scratching the surface of at the moment.

our teachers pay attention to see if we discover many of these things on our own of course. the balance, the peng energy and structure that extends to our limbs and keeps our center/body protected. the shifting between yin-yang energy and how we blend them to achieve a proper defense/attack... so keeping with taiji methodology we can lose our shape some and still retain the essence of the intention and reach our goals while we apply... imho.
Last edited by wuwei sifu on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby daniel pfister on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:10 pm

wuwei sifu wrote:ok, i saw the old dude the catch...coach; and that is the type of stuff i'm speaking about once ur up close.


You mean this 7 second clip with the old dude and I doing a push hands set? He's a Tai Chi teach too, but actually, I'm HIS push hands coach. ;) For better or worse....

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Re: Push Hands Meetup (nearly sparring?)

Postby wuwei sifu on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:21 pm

daniel pfister wrote:
wuwei sifu wrote:ok, i saw the old dude the catch...coach; and that is the type of stuff i'm speaking about once ur up close.


You mean this 7 second clip with the old dude and I doing a push hands set? He's a Tai Chi teach too, but actually, I'm HIS push hands coach. ;) For better or worse....



no, i'm talking about the billy robinson clip. and that type of attack is just one of the attacks you open ourselves up to when we allow the opponent freedom to place their arms and hands where they choose .

this wu style masters shows what i mean from both distances in terms of using ur structure via ur limbs to break the structure of ur opponent.
i would like to add that the energetic component is essential. ur structure & body mechanics will only allow you to go but so far. once you can change ur mind and get that special felling the application takes on a whole new life. truly a transformation from tiger to dragon imho.
i just viewed this seconds ago right here lol.
Last edited by wuwei sifu on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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