Awesome bagua sword

[ashapaul]

Hi guys, an older clip of me teaching the beginning applications of the bagua jian. Again nice and relaxed. I was actually quite ill whilst teaching and later in the evening had to conduct some blood letting with a sewing needle!
Thanks

[AllanF]

Nice stuff, but when i hear the word "awesome" connected to IMA i can't get the image of Jake Mace out of my head!

Good stuff, thanks for sharing.

[Andy_S]

Our man Paul is a treasure: I can't think of the last time I saw a decent and realistic application of classic Chinese weapons that actually reflected the stylistic use. That was simple, efficient and (to my eyes) deadly.

Goes to show: This material is so technically clever, you don't have to be super strong or super fast: you can pull it off even if you are feeling under the weather.

[edededed]

Great video - bagua sword is a lot of fun, and as Andy says, it is technically clever!

Plus, it looks really neat.

[leftwose]

at some point, I will watch all of this. However, 3 seconds in I have an issue.

Why didn't you just strike him in the head. Yes, technique can win, but only after after one learns to see the simple strikes.

Rythm, distance, timing.

How can you teach subtleties until you teach practicalities?

.conal.

[shawnsegler]

You really aren't terribly smart, are you Conal?

S

Back to my self imposed moritorium on talking. Please continue.

[willywrong]

Hi guys, an older clip of me teaching the beginning applications of the bagua jian. Again nice and relaxed. I was actually quite ill whilst teaching and later in the evening had to conduct some blood letting with a sewing needle!
Thanks

At 40 to 50 seconds when you stab him I'm curious why he didn't cut your head off. Sorry I just noted that you said you were quite ill. Get well soon.

[Kanken]

You can not move the sword because of Pauls listening skills with the weapon. That is one of the things you have to feel...

[Pandrews1982]

I really I don't like the starting position - from a contact point with little energy from the opponent it's just unrealistic and it's all too subdued. Anyone who has done any sword sparring will tell you that you very rarely use much "listening" skill on the other blade, in fact you often actively try to avoid touching blades and going for clean cuts and to simply avoid being cut. Things happen very fast with sword and whilst some of these basic applications might be able to be used occasionally the context they are being presented in is nothing like that of an active opponent. Might as well demo on a wooden dummy. Far from awesome...

To me the distance is all off too, primary target in jian is the sword holding hand rather than the torso. Only after dealing with the guard would you enter to that close distance, and in this demo there was no active opponent and no guard to deal with. In reality to get into that range either you've cut the hand/arm or made the opponent react in some way so that you can enter, otherwise you get cut down on the way in. Try to go blade to blade the opponent moves, retreats, slashes, and thursts from distance.

The point made by conal isn't invalid, again in active sparring you will often get double cuts, where both people land a strike, which one does the most damage would determine the victor. Whilst the cut at 45s would have been very bad, the guy could have easily thrust into the side of Paul's head/neck at the same time - double kill.

The hand control stuff later in the video is actually okay, but in the context that once you've closed this kind of thing can occur. Its not something I'd be looking to get into, rather looking for direct clean cuts using distancing, positioning and timing.

Personally I don't think the demo is realistic at all.

My views are not from theory but from active sparring in full contact setting and competing in European Chinese Sword Tournaments and doing quite well (quarter and semi-finals) with one of my students winning the comp in 2012.

[Simon]

I really I don't like the starting position - from a contact point with little energy from the opponent it's just unrealistic and it's all too subdued. Anyone who has done any sword sparring will tell you that you very rarely use much "listening" skill on the other blade, in fact you often actively try to avoid touching blades and going for clean cuts and to simply avoid being cut. Things happen very fast with sword and whilst some of these basic applications might be able to be used occasionally the context they are being presented in is nothing like that of an active opponent. Might as well demo on a wooden dummy. Far from awesome...

To me the distance is all off too, primary target in jian is the sword holding hand rather than the torso. Only after dealing with the guard would you enter to that close distance, and in this demo there was no active opponent and no guard to deal with. In reality to get into that range either you've cut the hand/arm or made the opponent react in some way so that you can enter, otherwise you get cut down on the way in. Try to go blade to blade the opponent moves, retreats, slashes, and thursts from distance.

The point made by conal isn't invalid, again in active sparring you will often get double cuts, where both people land a strike, which one does the most damage would determine the victor. Whilst the cut at 45s would have been very bad, the guy could have easily thrust into the side of Paul's head/neck at the same time - double kill.

The hand control stuff later in the video is actually okay, but in the context that once you've closed this kind of thing can occur. Its not something I'd be looking to get into, rather looking for direct clean cuts using distancing, positioning and timing.

Personally I don't think the demo is realistic at all.

My views are not from theory but from active sparring in full contact setting and competing in European Chinese Sword Tournaments and doing quite well (quarter and semi-finals) with one of my students winning the comp in 2012.

+1

The difference as you said comes with actual spaaring and testing, any weapon contact was always seen as a negative in our training as it could have been mutual destruction. both weapon hands destroyed. Listening skill in pressured enviroment is not really going to be a big part of the exchange. Try anythig like that with people like Tim Waid and reality shines through.

I like Pauls videos displaying IMA but lets not confuse the art with realistic useage.

[I am...]

I have to agree with the last two comments of those above. The person in the video is skilled, but most of that movement doesn't mesh well with the realities of combat with weapons, let alone double edged bladed weapons. We do quite a lot of work drilling and fighting with them at high intensity and much of that would either get you maimed or killed.

[willywrong]

You can not move the sword because of Pauls listening skills with the weapon. That is one of the things you have to feel...

Nonsense, he's got independent arm action available. What's a little stab its not like a disabling cut to the limb. Silvers argument. His sword is stuck inside his body so how's he going to counter with his arm presuming he has said listening skill developed to that degree to deal with the counter.

[leftwose]

No Shawn. I see what Paul did and why. My point was more about why bother. If his student can't see that dropping his tip like that opens up his heads, how can he possibly understand how his ribs were cut.

I get that you don't like me, and that is fine. But you don't need to be a dick any and every time my name shows up. One is allowed to have a difference of opinion.

In fact, it may be that I am framing a question or statement in order to facilitate a discussion in a direction I find interesting or potentially fruitful.

I like this video, I do. There is very good material shown here. Without context, there are things I don't like as well. This is why it is posted on a discussion board; to discuss.

For example: Pandrews1982 does not like this clip because it is not "realistic". I.E. - their starting position presupposes an initial contact that is defined by the teacher. And, while I agree that this is not "realistic" I feel it is clearly not meant to be. To my eyes, this is a sessions designed for Paul to showcase the flavor and tactics of the bagua jian to a newb. The hard work of training the Ability to do this comes later.\

Look at the second exchange, starting at 00:08. Student nods that he is ready. Teacher extends sword to meet. Student shifts weight onto back heel because he is unsure (BTW this is where he already 'lost'). Teacher initiates contact and Presses (peng). Student feels peng and responds in king, Pressing his blade and shifting his weight onto the forward foot. Teacher responds with Lu while moving forward, letting students power pass to the side of him. Evisceration.

Look at students face at 00:12. Joy and Wonder. This is an informational exchange, not an ability exchange. A conversation. Ther rest of the video proceeds from that context.

.conal.

[shawnsegler]

No Conal I don't act like a dick whenever you're around because I don't like you (although I don't like you) but for the same reason as always. You're a pompous know-nothing with more ego than sense.

S

[Bao]

I really I don't like the starting position - from a contact point with little energy from the opponent it's just unrealistic and it's all too subdued. ... To me the distance is all off too,...

Things happen very fast with sword and whilst some of these basic applications might be able to be used occasionally the context they are being presented in is nothing like that of an active opponent. Might as well demo on a wooden dummy.

Sorry for re-arranging your comments. Just to break up the context of yr points, so it's easier to answer.

These are good points. But to be fair, I think that it's easy to miss the point of a demo like this - What is being shown and why? It's a small clip from a practicing session, showing examples of how moves could be used. Some of the ideas could be useful in a different context, so IMHO, the distance, dummy or not is not very important to islate a few points. Maybe it wouldn't come off as clear if it was more realistic or if the opponent was jumping around as a madman?

Anyone who has done any sword sparring will tell you that you very rarely use much "listening" skill on the other blade, in fact you often actively try to avoid touching blades and going for clean cuts and to simply avoid being cut.

The most methods I have been taught starts from distance and are designed to break through the guard. Most of the entering techniques are designed to touch the other blade so it goes slightly off from it's direction, and then it goes in to strike the opponent's wrist with the tip of the sword. So the distance is kept while the opponent drops the blade. Then you run in for the kill. This is a IMHO a more realistic approach for jian swordplay. If you are equipped with a dao, you can go in and jam the opponent's sword or a spear against his own body body, but for the jian you really need to understand how to keep distance first before you can do anything else.

.... But then I guess we can ask ourselves, how can you be sure that what you learn about weaponry is realistic for a real combat situation or on the battlefield? It's very hard to test your knowledge or make any kind of sparring realistically for any kind of non-duel situation. I can't really cut my friends wrist and see if he really drops his weapon or how he would react for real. So how can I know that it would really work even if I had the chance and skill to pull it off? For me, all kind of traditional weapons practice seems too abstract and theoretical. It's easy to criticize someone's practice, but then it just turns into an intellectual game.