Ren Zhongxin free sparring

[Wanderingdragon]

Ian , you do have to go back in time , to find those who have taken the time to completely learn their art. In todays world those guys are not in plain site, the guys that call themselves masters .... yeah okay @@

[Ian]

Allan,

You posted a clip of Ren laoshi working against "a sanda guy", showing some really not very good striking and grappling (wide haymakers, slow taekwondo kicks, no power or timing whatsoever).

I asked what any taichi master in his prime (i.e. not Ren laoshi) would look like when fighting someone who knows how to strike and grapple, who isn't there to give the master "face", and isn't complicit in "proving" that taichi works.

(Khabib Nurmagomedov is in the same weight class as your sanda guy).

You said it's an apples to oranges comparison.

...You see what I mean? 

In your judo clips, tell me what is the difference of say judo guys playing judo games (randori) with other judoka and say the likes of Chen Ziqiang doing the same in the taiji world (sanshou/sanda)?

Apart from the fact that the judo techniques are more decisive, there's no difference.

The Chen Ziqiang clip is fine. 

I posted the original clip as I thought... stupidly... that people on an IMA forum would be interesting in... IMA and the skills set it can develop. It was silly of me!

If you practice TMAs, you should be uncritically supportive of all TMAs?

The problem is, there's a comparatively small handful of TMA practitioners who are happy to test their skill, through sport, security, law enforcement, street fights etc. 

A lot of what gets posted here ain't that, it's just LARPing. 

LARPing may be good for self esteem, making friends, improving your health, but it's not relevant to fighting. 

[Andy_S]

Ian;

It's an old guy playing around with one of his students and showing a bit of OK stuff.

IMHO, a slight breath of fresh air from the usual master "application demos" but nothing to get excited about, and certainly not comparable to professional MMA matches.

I think you know perfectly well that most IMA masters would not have a second's chance in the UFC ring (I would boldly extend that to "most TMA masters," period). This is true (or at least likely) for a whole range of circumstances, ranging from the changing position of CMA in recent Chinese society to North American media and marketing economics.

Some younger IMA guys - Chen Ziqiang is a good example - are pretty good at applying their arts in non-compliant environments, though I doubt if even he would have much of a chance against a top-tier UFC fighter. I thing I would disagree with many on this board when I opine that UFC fighters ARE probably the top empty hand fighters on earth. But even so: They represent a tiny, tiny minority of combatives/MA practitioners, and are at the top of a multi-billion-dollar game.

Comparing these to guys who practice in the park for an hour 4-5 mornings per week is really apples vs oranges, though I think that eve these park warriors, if they are serious about MA, would benefit from SOME experience of contact fighting: It would grant them valuable perspective. I think one of the core problems of the TMA crowd is that by ignoring competition - which is, in all spheres of human activity, the vehicle for improvement and betterment - they limit themselves to stagnation.

But when all is said and done: So what?

Not everybody seeks best-of-breed fighting expertize. I sometimes wonder why yourself take such a strong interest in combat effectiveness. I would guess you don't live in a ghetto (...?) and AFAIK you are not competing in MMA...? If you need it for professional reasons; if you are, in fact, an undercover agent, an assassin, a gang enforcer, a courier of high-value goods in dubious locations or some other specie of professional badass...OK, fair enough.

But if not:
Seen from the perspective of a hobby, the pursuit of TCMA - which grants a smorgasboard or health, fitness, self defense and/or cultural interest benefits, depending upon one's style, school and personal choices - might be considered by more people a more mature and even normal activity than the single-minded pursuit of combative efficacy.

BTW, what is LARPing?

[Alexatron]

Graham and BJJ, is like the chick who found her first guy with a big package and she just can't get enough. She thinks she's in love but she sooner finds out, there's more to love than just getting packed and pounded.

*LOL* This sort of comment suggests you have little understanding of 'chicks' (or your knowledge comes only from a certain kind of girl). It's the guys that normally need to be taught that few females enjoy being treated like a high impact exercise machine.

[AllanF]

Allan,

You posted a clip of Ren laoshi working against "a sanda guy", showing some really not very good striking and grappling (wide haymakers, slow taekwondo kicks, no power or timing whatsoever).

I asked what any taichi master in his prime (i.e. not Ren laoshi) would look like when fighting someone who knows how to strike and grapple, who isn't there to give the master "face", and isn't complicit in "proving" that taichi works.

(Khabib Nurmagomedov is in the same weight class as your sanda guy).

You said it's an apples to oranges comparison.

...You see what I mean? 

In your judo clips, tell me what is the difference of say judo guys playing judo games (randori) with other judoka and say the likes of Chen Ziqiang doing the same in the taiji world (sanshou/sanda)?

Apart from the fact that the judo techniques are more decisive, there's no difference.

The Chen Ziqiang clip is fine. 

I posted the original clip as I thought... stupidly... that people on an IMA forum would be interesting in... IMA and the skills set it can develop. It was silly of me!

If you practice TMAs, you should be uncritically supportive of all TMAs?

The problem is, there's a comparatively small handful of TMA practitioners who are happy to test their skill, through sport, security, law enforcement, street fights etc. 

A lot of what gets posted here ain't that, it's just LARPing. 

LARPing may be good for self esteem, making friends, improving your health, but it's not relevant to fighting. 

I've had very little sleep over the last few days so apologies if this gets a bit disjointed.

I never said this was the be all and end all of martial arts. Hell i never even said this was a fight, i said this was "a little sparring with a young sanda guy" nothing more. The skill or the power of the young guy isn't the point of the clip, you can only work with what you are given. As for giving RZX face...yes you are absolutely right a chap in his 20s giving a chap in his 70s face is bound to happen. It is called manners, if you decided to go full bore on a guy 50 years older than you then that would be what i would describe as "being a dick"! You have constructed a great strawman argument though!

"Khabib Nurmagomedov is in the same weight class as your sanda guy" As the clip was about Ren Zhongxin and not the Sanda guy kinda of a false comparison. If you are asking could Ren Zhongxin do the stuff he is doing in the clips when he was young?...then no i don't think he could. My own view of IMA is that it can help you to maintain AND improve your fighting ability into the autumn of your years (As can be seen by a great many IMA master of the past Dong Haichuan, Yang Luchan, Cheng Tinghua etc all did external martial arts before IMA notable exception being Chen Fake).

I asked what any taichi master in his prime (i.e. not Ren laoshi) would look like when fighting someone who knows how to strike and grapple, who isn't there to give the master "face", and isn't complicit in "proving" that taichi works.

And i answered by posting the Chen Ziqiang and the other Wang Zhanhai/Wang Zhanjun fight, which you yourself said "was fine". (Posted again)



As has been stated so many times before, if you want to learn how to fight...you need...to...FIGHT! Personally far as real fighting goes i agree with Willywrong's post on another thread "a confrontation in an uncontrolled environment is not a fight. It is simply pure and unadulterated violence. And if you've ever experienced this, you're know that the only way to deal with the issue is with whatever you can bring to the party." So in regard to your comment about my "style" working or not...i couldn't give a rats as about "style". The last time i was involved in a spot of bother was in China, and was a significant reason for my leaving so quickly, the only thing that was important to me during that time was finishing the job...absolutely nothing else entered my mind.

I actually like sport fighting...it is fun and relatively safe. With no financial or legal consequences

"If you practice TMAs, you should be uncritically supportive of all TMAs?"

Of course not, hell i am extremely critical of 99.9% so taijiquan out there (less so of other TMA for the simple reason i know less about them). But it does seem that you seem to pre-judge IMA in particular to the point that you throw the baby out with the bath water.

I realize i am starting to ramble at the moment...very very tired (bloody kids)! to be honest i think we are more or less on the same page in regard to testing the viability of what traditional arts which is why i study were i do now. Interestingly i have noticed a difference between reasonable comparables, i.e. people who do martial arts as a hobby (MMA and IMA) MMA guys move stiffer (as a rough generalization) but they are used to getting hit.

I think the words of my kali teacher are key to the whole discussion (who teaches and does MMA, 2Dan BJJ, and holds dan grades in other JMA), there is a difference between combat and the ART, e.g. kali has a lot of very functional stuff but it also has a lot of stuff that is less so. So why do it? Because there is value in doing the art, you learn body mechanics (in Chinese that would be shenfa) and it helps you to explore the possibilities of the art which in turn helps you to expand your knowledge and skill.

If this makes no sense apologies...struggling...

[cloudz]

It's no big deal to me, I take the clip for what it is. To me it's a training or sparring drill, and sure you take into account the ages the further context etc.

I think you maybe went a bit 'wrong' calling it sparring and mentioning sanda, it's not really either and it probably gives the wrong impression at first. But I think Ian is being over the top and somewhat trollish at this point - but that's Ian..

When I first saw it, I was disappointed because the clip did not meet the expectations of the title or billing it was given: "free sparring". Then when I assessed what I was actually watching, rather than feeding off someone else's description the clip is fine to me. It is what it is, the old guy shows a few nice skills and techniques against some non pre arranged attacks. Those attacks don't have much intent or are even aimed at the head/ face for example, (I would describe it as 'feeding') but that's neither here nor there really if you accept this as a training drill/ or sparring drill then take into account the further context like no padding/gloves.

He's hardly going to smack the old guy one in the face there, and neither should he. Sometimes when you train you work around things, go lighter, leave some things out, adapt etc. Like I said, for me, no big deal.. it reminds me a bit of a striking (attack) vs grappling (defense) sparring drill I like to use in training, just with toned down striking from the young lad.

[Ian]

Thanks, Allan, for the response. Looks like we agree on a lot of points after all

And thanks, George, for the character attack. Not sure what I've done to offend you, as I personally don't harbour any ill feelings towards you. But such is the internet

[cloudz]

Thanks, Allan, for the response. Looks like we agree on a lot of points after all

And thanks, George, for the character attack. Not sure what I've done to offend you, as I personally don't harbour any ill feelings towards you. But such is the internet

You haven't offended me, it's just (I think) this kind of thing is quite common from you and it is somewhat "trollish", just another opinion.. That's a description of some internet behaviour, hardly an attack on your character.. I'm sure you're a fine bloke, but often you behave a bit "trollishly" in some threads; that's my observation and opinions are naturally formed, whether you like or agree with them or not. Not really a good or bad judgement on you as I have been there myself trying to uphold some standards on the martial aspects of the art. I just think you went a bit overboard here, over zealous if you will.

You may be a great example of what it is to be well rounded & martially competent in the modern world of martial arts, not everyone must share your agenda and needs and neither are you entitled to 'demand' anything from others practice. Just think on it a little, and maybe you'll consider to dial down your being over zealous in trying to dictate to all and sundry how they should be training; to meet your criteria..

Leave that shit to me!

[Ian]

George, thanks for the feedback. I'll take it into consideration.

Andy, I'm into sport fighting competitions, which are interesting and fun, not law enforcement, the military, nor street fights. Nothing wrong with those things btw. 

And I never said Ren laoshi should test his skill in the octagon, that would be ludicrous