Feeding crane boxing hands

[neijia_boxer]

Looks a fuck lot more practical than taiji push hands training: (6:40 into video for the good stuff I'm talkin' bout)

[Wanderingdragon]

What is missing in almost all TCMA sparring is beginning from broken hands, entering to attack from empty space. I feel western boxing offers a wealth of information in that aspect of fighting.

[kenneth fish]

Shi He Quan and the martial arts found in the town of Xiluo (Taiwan) are among the most intact systems of old, combat oriented CMA to be found anywhere in China or S.E. Asia. Taiwan White Crane has several variants - all of them are worthwhile, IMO.

What I think is interesting too in this video is that the people from Hong Kong are well versed in Wing Chun - and here they are encountering the progenitor art from which Wing Chun derived.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Looks a fuck lot more practical than taiji push hands training:
SNIP

Well, Crane is largely a striking based art, whereas Taiji is largely a manipulation-based art. (Or, if we cannot agree on that, we should at least, be able to agree that Taiji's most famed two-man method, PH, is a manipulation based method. Whether striking or manipulating is a better fighting method comes down to personal preference.)

What is interesting is that a number of Taiwanese Tajii masters whose Taiji lacked fajing training reputedly learned Crane, and added the Crane energetics and fajing training into their Taiji....without necessarily telling their students that the material was originally from Crane.

[Andy_S]

Crivens!

I had always wondered about Crane's influence on Kuhrotty (?) and at 2:05 THERE IT IS BOYS!
....Daniel-san's patented "Valley Kuhrotty Tournament" kick.

Hell yeah!

[kenneth fish]

Taiwan White Crane also has its own versions of sticking hands - much more reactive and practical than pushing hands, develops a high degree of sensitivity and speed.

[Andy_S]

From what little I have seen and done of it, sticking hands sensitizes and spring loads the arms, whereas push hands sensitizes and spring loads the entire body.

I think the former is easier to become proficient at (I won't say "master"), and is more directly related to combat, but I would suggest that PH offers greater long-term potential.

[kenneth fish]

I would suggest that you have not been exposed to good quality sticking hands, and probably not White Crane sticking hands. It is indeed a whole body training - the entire body is the "arm".

[windwalker]

Taiwan White Crane also has its own versions of sticking hands - much more reactive and practical than pushing hands, develops a high degree of sensitivity and speed.

do you practice or train with those that are considered to be high level in what is called push hands?
is taiji your major style of study?

[neijia_boxer]

what prompted my interest in viewing Feeding crane boxing was DGlenn's post in Yang Taijiquan Da shou thread a while back:

"搭 手 Dāshǒu goes back to the 1200s but the other terms are hard to date. There is mention that Roushou is originally a ‘Feeding Crane Boxing practice’ which was popular in Beijing; Panshou is a xingyi practice because it develops drilling, twisting, wringing etc. ; Moshou is a Bagua practice because it develops tui, tou, dai, ling, ban, kou, pi, and Jin. And Tuishou develops zhan, nian, lian, and sui, which is in all 3 styles so that’s why it was chosen as the standard. Da(the Ji (skill) of Ji (Hitting))shou is just striking and Sanshou is more free fighting so neither of those would have been a good choice for a standard and safe way to test the skills between different schools. Dong Haichuan, Yang Luchan, Guo Yunshen all came up with this during meetings in Beijing."

It def has the bridging that most Taijiquan people lack to train.

[Wanderingdragon]

First contact creates the bridge, who wins first contact wins control, this interaction is only ever interrupted in the rule set of western boxing. It is key in true fighting and also should be learned by MMA fighters. As Ken Fish said the arm is the body, and I will add,sticking is thick and heavy.

[D_Glenn]

Note that the 'Rou Shou' is 揉 Rou (rubbing/ kneading) arms, kind of like when rolling or kneading out dough. You can see that in the way Liu's forearms are developed and used.

.

[kenneth fish]

Windy:

Yes, I have experienced very high level pushing hands, and have learned from (and, during their lifetimes, was good friends with) some very skilled Taiji practitioners, most of whom are no longer with us.

Futsao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun was the first system that I trained in (I learned privately from Henry Leung, the head of the system). When I lived in Taiwan I had close friends who were very skilled in Taiwan White Crane (mostly Feeding Crane) and also some family systems from the town of Xilo.

Liao Wuchang was a good friend and mentor to me (he was my adopted siblings "gandie" and my adopted fathers close friend. He was also a good friend of my XIngyi teacher). Through him I got to see quite a lot of the traditional martial arts practiced by the Taiwanese (as opposed to the mainlanders who came in 1949).

I trained quite seriously (but not exclusively) in Taiji for about 2 decades (Yang Banhou and Hao styles) but have made my main focus Xingyi and Tongbei.

So to answer your implied question - yes, I do believe I have a basis for comparison.

[windwalker]

Windy:

Yes, I have experienced very high level pushing hands, and have learned from (and, during their lifetimes, was good friends with) some very skilled Taiji practitioners, most of whom are no longer with us.

Futsao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun was the first system that I trained in (I learned privately from Henry Leung, the head of the system). When I lived in Taiwan I had close friends who were very skilled in Taiwan White Crane (mostly Feeding Crane) and also some family systems from the town of Xilo.

Liao Wuchang was a good friend and mentor to me (he was my adopted siblings "gandie" and my adopted fathers close friend. He was also a good friend of my XIngyi teacher). Through him I got to see quite a lot of the traditional martial arts practiced by the Taiwanese (as opposed to the mainlanders who came in 1949).

I trained quite seriously (but not exclusively) in Taiji for about 2 decades (Yang Banhou and Hao styles) but have made my main focus Xingyi and Tongbei.

So to answer your implied question - yes, I do believe I have a basis for comparison.

just wondered,

have a kung fu, bother who teaches s-mantis, have played with some Iliq chaun people, and also n-mantis, as well as with many taiji styllist.
I think it depends on the focus and type of "push hands" that one has encountered or trained in.

Even with some people who are considered to be very high level I found it can be quite different depending if the method
is focused on body or mind.

[taiwandeutscher]

Well, the cranes of Taiwan, what can I tell you? A broken ulna!
And Xiluo as mentioned by Ken is the real deal, guys, if you want to see, you better hurry up, they are getting old and the youngsters don't train as hard, lol. There are also pockets of good crane in Chiayi, Tainan and Gaoxiong, but hard to get close, often ridiculously expensive, just to turn ppl down.