Marcus brinkmans snake

[D_Glenn]

I would be curious to know what the songs are in Men Baozhen's book
and also why D-Glenn chooses to translate and share Sun's writing and equate it to the practice of his lineage rather then translate the songs in Men Baozhen's book?
Franklin

The Songs/rhymes/ mnemonics come from Dong Haichuan and I use the ones transcribed in SLT's book because some unknown Chinese person was kind enough to enter them onto internet. I don't use MBZ's because I don't have a copy of the book and nobody has put it on the internet. It doesn't matter to me though as it's still just a version of the Bagua Bible.

.

[Brinkman]

Franklin and D Glenn..both of you guys are outstanding scholars in this field of study for my money..and more importantly
like myself when I started martial arts, had no idea I would be dragged in, one limb at a time, into this massive vortex of Chinese culture. Its utterly overwhelming, yet one thing leads to the next and so on...

So I would assume that both of you became Chinese medical practitioners basically in order to figure out all of the constant references to medical theory, Taoist alchemy, meditation, fengshui., etc. in order to start reassembling the unified field theory of Chinese martial arts. where medicine, martial arts, alchemy, are all fused together as one. In the end however, thats what it requires to have a clue about this stuff. Even here in Asia however, students are in general not much wiser, most of them just repeat, whatever their grandmaster has told them. It like following a recipe without understanding the art and science of cooking.

On the other hand, I know there are brilliant mofos among us who will use a mix of western and eastern thought to reassemble it in a different way according their individual need. I have been looking and listening to Middleway, Grahm. Imon's break down of this work and I'm always picking up cool new stuff..and ways to look at neijia training. There are many others..

FRanklin I've only heard good things about your translation..I hope everyone will support you on this one..bye the way, anywhere in Taipei I can buy a copy.?

CJW..I understand you don't have any Chinese medical background...but I would imagine that your grandmaster may have attempted to explain some of these concepts to you. Most every serious Bagua, taiji, xingyi guy I have ever met has a basic handle on the fundamental Chinese medical correspondences rife throughout every so called internal training manual that I've ever perused in Chinese. You could argue thatit is not necessary to have this basis, yet it is so intimately linked with the Taoist alchemical theory, they are essentially one in the same.

[Wanderingdragon]

Steps and levels, the western mind always wants to skip the steps and levels. There is great knowledge in research but only knowing is in doing.

[Franklin]

I would be curious to know what the songs are in Men Baozhen's book
and also why D-Glenn chooses to translate and share Sun's writing and equate it to the practice of his lineage rather then translate the songs in Men Baozhen's book?
Franklin

The Songs/rhymes/ mnemonics come from Dong Haichuan and I use the ones transcribed in SLT's book because some unknown Chinese person was kind enough to enter them onto internet. I don't use MBZ's because I don't have a copy of the book and nobody has put it on the internet. It doesn't matter to me though as it's still just a version of the Bagua Bible.

.

fair enough about sun's material being an easily had reference in Chinese on the net
I am curious about what is in men baozhang's book and how similar it is to Sun's or other lineages
i know the basic trigram correlations are going to be similar across the board
because its the trigrams- directions, yin and yang lines - there is not much room for interpretation on the basic correlations
how about the other stuff related to the trigrams and the boxing
as i said, from personal experience this stuff in sun's book tends to correspond heavily with the indoor material of the system

did your teacher advise you to use sun's material as a guide?
or did they make Men BaoZhang's material available to students?
or have you had access to Men BaoZhang's book in the past?

any plans to publish the material from your lineage?
or translate into english?
I think that would be great for everyone and a real treasure!!!

interesting that sun doesn't put the bagua "songs" in his book
i am referring to the ones in the Liang ZhenPu book compiled by Li ZiMing that was translated into english
are these songs part of your tradition?


Franklin

[Franklin]

Franklin and D Glenn..both of you guys are outstanding scholars in this field of study for my money..and more importantly
like myself when I started martial arts, had no idea I would be dragged in, one limb at a time, into this massive vortex of Chinese culture. Its utterly overwhelming, yet one thing leads to the next and so on...

So I would assume that both of you became Chinese medical practitioners basically in order to figure out all of the constant references to medical theory, Taoist alchemy, meditation, fengshui., etc. in order to start reassembling the unified field theory of Chinese martial arts. where medicine, martial arts, alchemy, are all fused together as one. In the end however, thats what it requires to have a clue about this stuff. Even here in Asia however, students are in general not much wiser, most of them just repeat, whatever their grandmaster has told them. It like following a recipe without understanding the art and science of cooking.

On the other hand, I know there are brilliant mofos among us who will use a mix of western and eastern thought to reassemble it in a different way according their individual need. I have been looking and listening to Middleway, Grahm. Imon's break down of this work and I'm always picking up cool new stuff..and ways to look at neijia training. There are many others..

FRanklin I've only heard good things about your translation..I hope everyone will support you on this one..bye the way, anywhere in Taipei I can buy a copy.?

CJW..I understand you don't have any Chinese medical background...but I would imagine that your grandmaster may have attempted to explain some of these concepts to you. Most every serious Bagua, taiji, xingyi guy I have ever met has a basic handle on the fundamental Chinese medical correspondences rife throughout every so called internal training manual that I've ever perused in Chinese. You could argue thatit is not necessary to have this basis, yet it is so intimately linked with the Taoist alchemical theory, they are essentially one in the same.

i agree with you that the practice encompasses aspects: martial, medicine, alchemy
and making sense of it can be a difficult process
and as Wanderingdragon has said it is something that needs to be done and experienced rather then just theory

and i agree- lots of great people here sharing stuff


as for the state of medicine-- thats a whole other big topic
(probably not suited for a MA board)
but from what i have seen here in taiwan --
and of course I might have missed a whole lot (actually I hope I have missed a whole lot)
seems to be that herbal medicine takes the front stage
possibly due to how the national insurance reimbursement works
where the dr can see someone, diagnose, write the formula and move on to the next patient
and what i have seen of the formulas- its something like 2 or 3 traditional formulas combined together and then additional herbs added
almost like a shotgun approach... and its a lot of herbs...
the needles seem to be used less
maybe your experience is different?

and what i have seen in the states--
a lot of my classmates have gone the community acupuncture route
to keep the doors open and pay the bills...
to me doing this although effective for the treatment and the business
it tends to loose a lot of the potential of the medicine...


thanks -- i am glad that people are finding my translation useful
if we ever get a chance to get together again (since i am living in taipei now it should be easier)
- i think i have a copy of the bagua book (but sadly not the xingyi one)
and i would ask you about your pulse diagnosis book-- is it still available?


franklin

[Brinkman]

Lots of traditional herb stores and hence herbalist have closed up shop, here in Taiwan just in the last few years.. tariffs, regulations , politics have all taken their toll on its practice. In the past herbs were cheap and regular folk could afford it..now with the crack-down on animals products, and a host of other banned items.. It’s a dying art..

In fact most of the traditional methods such as moxabustion, cupping, bleeding etc have been replaced with a lot of high tech gadgetry.. ..Now there’s a smart phone application that will read your pulse. In fact, for at least the last 20 years in Hong Kong many of the herbal pharmacies employ a machine which will read your pulse and then compute the herbal formula…in and out within 5 minutes. Nonetheless there are still lots of good people here ..guaranteed!

Also if you were in Taizhong at the main medical college ..you can find some world class doctors there ..yet I happen to know that things are changing dramatically there as well. They are also very generous with scholarships and are sometimes looking for foreign teachers .. sad story is even the PHD students are having a hard time getting a practice off the ground,, the competition is fierce and yes the national health care system has changed everything.

Anyway I can perhaps direct you to some people who know the scene pretty well.when we meet up

[wayne hansen]

Can u point me to those apps that read and calculate the pulse
I only ever met one doctor who could accurately read the pulse
I would tell people to tell him nothing and he would tell them their entire medical history

[taiwandeutscher]

Seems that down south the situation is still a bit better, all trad. therapies are easily available, within the insurance system, but mostly outside of it.
What did change here too, was the Tuina Shi, who now only can work with complicated certification. So good Tuina people got scares. But in MA circles, good traditional health practitioners are often enough recommended.

[kenneth fish]

There are still some very good people in Taipei. Yes, many shops have closed, but the best still remain. One that I have known since I was a teenager, Yanghe Tang 養和堂 on Heping East Road (next to the Power Company office) is still there, the owner still runs the place and his son has been thoroughly trained and does a great job with the herbal pharmacy. (He is also a first class calligrapher - I had him design my Chinese business cards this past visit). I found others of the older generation, and many of my classmates, and their successors still practicing - so all is not lost. You are correct that the prospects for new graduates are a bit bleak - and part of the problem is that not many want to do what our generation did after graduating, which is to apprentice themselves to older traditional doctors.

One of the other trends is that some of the better doctors no longer have a visible shingle up or a storefront shop - they operate out of their homes or apartments, and frequently do home consultations.

Taichung and the smaller towns were a different story - much is like Taipei of 30 years ago, and traditional practices are still getting by.

[D_Glenn]

I would be curious to know what the songs are in Men Baozhen's book
and also why D-Glenn chooses to translate and share Sun's writing and equate it to the practice of his lineage rather then translate the songs in Men Baozhen's book?
Franklin

The Songs/rhymes/ mnemonics come from Dong Haichuan and I use the ones transcribed in SLT's book because some unknown Chinese person was kind enough to enter them onto internet. I don't use MBZ's because I don't have a copy of the book and nobody has put it on the internet. It doesn't matter to me though as it's still just a version of the Bagua Bible.

fair enough about sun's material being an easily had reference in Chinese on the net
I am curious about what is in men baozhang's book and how similar it is to Sun's or other lineages
i know the basic trigram correlations are going to be similar across the board
because its the trigrams- directions, yin and yang lines - there is not much room for interpretation on the basic correlations
how about the other stuff related to the trigrams and the boxing
as i said, from personal experience this stuff in sun's book tends to correspond heavily with the indoor material of the system

did your teacher advise you to use sun's material as a guide?
or did they make Men BaoZhang's material available to students?
or have you had access to Men BaoZhang's book in the past?

any plans to publish the material from your lineage?
or translate into english?
I think that would be great for everyone and a real treasure!!!

interesting that sun doesn't put the bagua "songs" in his book
i am referring to the ones in the Liang ZhenPu book compiled by Li ZiMing that was translated into english
are these songs part of your tradition?
Franklin

My teacher sings the songs during lectures and typically nearly every question that someone asks can be answered with something found in one of the songs. The songs about the 8 trigram animal shapes are basically the same as the one's transcribed in SLT's book. The other songs like the one about the Yang Fire and Yin Amulet are also important. We have several versions of the 36 songs, not versions really, but more than 36 but there were just grouped into the number 36. The closest to our songs are Shi Jidong's 36 and 48 songs, which makes sense since he was Yin Fu's nephew.

No plans for publishing any of them though, as Jinbao is teaching openly, where basic movements are filmed to provide a solid basis but the inner door material is still only being taught within the seminars and is not filmed or recorded. There's a set few basic applications that he lets be taped and shown to the general public but there's so much more that is only shown in a seminar. Same with the songs and information, he'll only share so much openly and then really go into depth when there's no recording or taping going on. It's actually to our benefit that not a lot of copies of MBZ's book survived because it contains so many secrets, but it's always better to hear them and then see them applied in context of fighting, moving, body skills, etc. Since they are direct 1 on 1 oral teachings and instructions it's better to keep them that way.

Being in a book would be nice but it also dilutes the essence of them as being useful teaching tools. Why then did Men Baozhen publish all his secrets at the time?, probably because it was a time of great change and all the secrets of the IMAs were being published by other people anyway, and he probably felt that the information he held within his mind and body would be lost if he didn't share it. Dr. Xie felt the same way in the 80s and 90s. Jinbao says "Who knows, maybe he'll feel the same way when he gets older and feel the need to publish a book, but in the meantime he's trying to teach the material in a traditional way, albeit with the help of modern conveniences like video, the internet, and being able to reach and find students from all over the world, rather than having to rely on finding students from his own city."

Most of the differences in the different transcriptions of the songs is that since they needed to flow in a proper cadence when said out loud, that in some parts a different character that had the proper tone, was used in place of the real word/character that had the wrong tone, and wouldn't fit into the rhyme. So the major part of hearing the songs is afterward where Jinbao then explains that certain characters should actually be known to be this other one. The original songs are really just poetry but when you substitute the right characters into the songs then they have real meaning and application to the martial art.


.

[Brinkman]

Wayne.. check out Dr Zhang's pulse stuff ..if you get a chance....
I translated his book and apprenticed 8 or 9 years with him.

here is a lecture on his " pulse in a pulse" mai zhong mai


.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiFTi1ytpkg

ps did you know Bob Davies?

[wayne hansen]

Thanks Marcus my daughter is learning naturopathy and I have been trying to get her into pulse diagnosis
I will pass it on to her
Would still love to see the apps that perport to do this

[shawnsegler]

It might be silly of me, but I've gone to a few doctors of TCM and had mixed results. At this point in my life my rule for going to see a doctor of TCM is that I won't go to them unless I know they are competent practitioners of ICMA as well. I'm sure it's possible for someone who doesn't do ICMA to read pulses and understand "qi" et al, but IME people who are good at ICMA and practitioners of TCM have been uniformly better and I have to think it's because they've raised their proprioceptive capabilities to a high level through the ICMA and then utilized that in their TCM.

Maybe I'm ignorant but it seems to make sense to me.

Best,

S

[Michael]

Can u point me to those apps that read and calculate the pulse

They sell at least a couple of things that measure the pulse in a variety of ways.
http://store.heartmath.org/Inner-Balance

Another app for measuring heart rate variability infor.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hrv-sen ... 21335?mt=8

[Franklin]

My teacher sings the songs during lectures and typically nearly every question that someone asks can be answered with something found in one of the songs. The songs about the 8 trigram animal shapes are basically the same as the one's transcribed in SLT's book. The other songs like the one about the Yang Fire and Yin Amulet are also important. We have several versions of the 36 songs, not versions really, but more than 36 but there were just grouped into the number 36. The closest to our songs are Shi Jidong's 36 and 48 songs, which makes sense since he was Yin Fu's nephew.

No plans for publishing any of them though, as Jinbao is teaching openly, where basic movements are filmed to provide a solid basis but the inner door material is still only being taught within the seminars and is not filmed or recorded. There's a set few basic applications that he lets be taped and shown to the general public but there's so much more that is only shown in a seminar. Same with the songs and information, he'll only share so much openly and then really go into depth when there's no recording or taping going on. It's actually to our benefit that not a lot of copies of MBZ's book survived because it contains so many secrets, but it's always better to hear them and then see them applied in context of fighting, moving, body skills, etc. Since they are direct 1 on 1 oral teachings and instructions it's better to keep them that way.

Being in a book would be nice but it also dilutes the essence of them as being useful teaching tools. Why then did Men Baozhen publish all his secrets at the time?, probably because it was a time of great change and all the secrets of the IMAs were being published by other people anyway, and he probably felt that the information he held within his mind and body would be lost if he didn't share it. Dr. Xie felt the same way in the 80s and 90s. Jinbao says "Who knows, maybe he'll feel the same way when he gets older and feel the need to publish a book, but in the meantime he's trying to teach the material in a traditional way, albeit with the help of modern conveniences like video, the internet, and being able to reach and find students from all over the world, rather than having to rely on finding students from his own city."

Most of the differences in the different transcriptions of the songs is that since they needed to flow in a proper cadence when said out loud, that in some parts a different character that had the proper tone, was used in place of the real word/character that had the wrong tone, and wouldn't fit into the rhyme. So the major part of hearing the songs is afterward where Jinbao then explains that certain characters should actually be known to be this other one. The original songs are really just poetry but when you substitute the right characters into the songs then they have real meaning and application to the martial art.


.

interesting-
hope you guys decide to publish your information
it would be a real treasure for everyone....


whats your ideas on where sun's eight animal bagua came from?
cheng tinghua's system correlates to your dragon animal system
but cheng's student sun teaches eight animal forms
and has the songs of the eight trigrams.. etc...
do you think sun got this martial material if not from cheng?
did dong teach cheng more then the dragon system?
and if so why didn't he share it with anyone besides sun?
all interesting questions...
any insights?