Taiji Tested (this time for real)

[D_Glenn]

^ Neither. Looks like Sumo wrestling.

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[Dmitri]

Right, Steve. For better or for worse, that is Chen tjq, as CZQ is a legit lineage holder and there's simply no getting around these simple facts. Whatever it looks like, doesn't matter, it is Chen family taijiquan (or one of the fully legitimate "flavors" of it), period. What anyone thinks it should or shouldn't look like is utterly irrelevant, in that light.

[GrahamB]

I would love for the critics here to find a guy who knows what they're doing and is heavier than them by at least 50%, and see how effortless and amazing they look going against him.

I agree withy you that weight is a huge, huge factor. If skill is equal weight decides it.

But (to turn your quote around) really I'd just like to see Mr Chen doing this against somebody who knows what they're doing.

He's doing SC, not push hands, but has he ever entered a SC tournament?

[wayne hansen]

I think it's a modern aboration
The first films out of Chen village had non of this type stuff

[Steve James]

Yep, that's just the way they play phs. It's not patty-cake, but at least it would be transferable to other combat sports events. I'm not saying that they'd be better or worse, or that it's a complete system. Actually, I just wanted to point out that throws, trips, leg hooks, etc, are and always have been part of tcc. You recall the old mantra "tcc has no legs" But, when a practitioner uses his legs or throws punches or kicks, it's automatically branded as "not taichi."

Hey, how and what do xingyi or bagua do in these types of events? I think they'd have throws, trips, etc. too. No reason I can see that they wouldn't. I was taught that all cmas did.

[Steve James]

The first films out of Chen village had non of this type stuff

Are they on YouTube? Are you saying that Chen tcc died out or is dead? Any living representatives who compete against other styles?

[D_Glenn]

Hey, how and what do xingyi or bagua do in these types of events? I think they'd have throws, trips, etc. too. No reason I can see that they wouldn't. I was taught that all cmas did.

SJ is in all CMAs, it's an assumed basic skill and that everyone has a decent level of understanding of it. But learning Shuai Jiao from a dedicated SJ Master is almost guaranteed to make one better at SJ then other styles that are focused on developing other skills. If someone wants to be good at SJ then study SJ.

Another possibilty as to what's happening is that CZQ is thinking that his opponents are so weak that he can beat them with some basic SJ and not even have to use TJQ.

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[Steve James]

Yeah, kick, punch, throw are in all cmas. no doubt about that. Afa what CZQ is doing, it's not different from what they typically do.

Is there a way to kick punch and throw in a "tcc way," I don't know. Whether it's too "high level" to show on video, I'm not sure about that either. I think that the stuff done in the Chen phs tourney could be used against a resisting opponent. So, "if" they need to use it outside of the competition, it would be possible. Sure, if they have better, fancier, more internal stuff, that's fine too. One would think they would use it it in their own tournaments, or else why have a tournament in the first place.

[wayne hansen]

Someone said it was a traditional Chen way of moving
I am just saying I think it is a modern adaptation

[Steve James]

Ok, should it look more like this, or is this modern too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE

[wayne hansen]

Nothing should look like that

[Trip]

Someone said it was a traditional Chen way of moving
I am just saying I think it is a modern adaptation

Could you be more specific by your meaning of "modern adaptation"?

Like what do you consider "modern adaptations of Taiji? or are limiting your observation just to Push Hands?
Are you saying they are modern adaptations of Chen style only?
Are you saying the usage of trips, punches, etc. is a modern adaptation?

If so, what's your opinion of when these modern adaptations to Taiji started?

[leifeng]

I'm just curious: Are there similar arguments about Japanese Jiujitsu and modern Judo?

[wayne hansen]

As I was taught throws were always a part of pushing
Blows were only used when your opponent did it recognise your superior position
A good example would leaving your head unprotected to attack below

[windwalker]

As I was taught throws were always a part of pushing
Blows were only used when your opponent did it recognise your superior position
A good example would leaving your head unprotected to attack below

this is from the comment section by a long time chen taiji practitioner.

Marin Spivack This may make some folks uncomfortable, but I have enough experience to notice these things and do not have the political concerns to need to ignore them so I will ask this here.

Why... why is CZQ hitting his student in the face with his shoulder, when he puts his head in range, yet the student is not hitting him in the face when he puts his head in the same spot?

Generally speaking, in Chen Taijiquan in my experience (which is in public and private in China etc) we consider hitting students and friends in the face, with shoulders or elbows, or even hitting them really hard with shoulders or elbows (or fists) anywhere to be "not nice". It is said to be "bu wenming" (not cordial, disrespectful) and generally a violation of the gentleman's agreement that tuishou IS.

Tuishou is NOT a fight, and if you want to really hit someone, it is not suited for it, nor a realistic exploration of opportunities for striking that would occur IN a real fight at all. By saying this I mean that no one in the real world would ever give you such an opportunity.

Hitting your student in the face with a shoulder is at the very least disrespectful, but also unsafe, unnecessary, and also using an unrealistic situation to teach striking.

Beyond that, if ANYONE changes the rules of a game you are playing such as adding shoulder strikes to the face to tuishou, then both parties should know and engage. So, his students would then all be smashing his face as well, since his head is in the exact same spot and that strike is easy when people put their head there.

I get a strong sense that people here would not be comfortable hitting CZQ in the face with a shoulder or anything else because he is their teacher or they respect him. The fact that he is willing to do it to you is simply not a measure of 'skill' but simply a willingness to hurt you to unnecessarily prove a point. What is the point being proved?
November 9 at 7:14pm · Like · 13

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=371873462977438

worth repeating

Tuishou is NOT a fight, and if you want to really hit someone, it is not suited for it, nor a realistic exploration of opportunities for striking that would occur IN a real fight at all. By saying this I mean that no one in the real world would ever give you such an opportunity.

it is a way of testing, understanding and developing feeling awareness. With out this practice most of the tenets of taiji, regardless of style wont make much sense.
some have asked about changing mma rule sets to use taiji, others have asked about things left out or what ever.
IME once one runs into a person who has achieved taiji skill sets most if not all the questions will be answered.

in gen: I agree with the posters comments, but dont really care for the Chen style while still respecting it.