Taiji Tested (this time for real)

[Trip]

Greetings WindWalker,

As far as Zhan, Nian, Lian, and Sui, I brought these same 4 fundamentals up to you in an earlier thread:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20745&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

But most importantly, I thought I was asking a simple question based on your reply to Steve

Steve:
Anyway, I made the point that, however it looked, it seemed suitable for competition with other styles. Yeah, that is precisely because of the trips and throws. Those skills would be transferable to a judo match or stand-up wrestling...

what skills?
trips, and throws?...

The heart of my question was:
Is it your belief that the skill sets learned from Push Hands means no trips, sweeps, throws or punches, etc.?
And Do you feel that "good" Taiji does not use trips, sweeps, throws, punches, etc.?

But I don't have the calm endurance to dig through a circular reply that includes a great deal of word for word cut and paste of someone else’s thoughts and piece it together to figure out what you are really saying.

It's one of my many failings.

So, I thank you very much for considering my question.
Please forgive me if I've wasted your time.

☮☮☮

[windwalker]

Greetings WindWalker,

As far as Zhan, Nian, Lian, and Sui, I brought these same 4 fundamentals up to you in an earlier thread:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20745&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

But most importantly, I thought I was asking a simple question based on your reply to Steve

Steve:
Anyway, I made the point that, however it looked, it seemed suitable for competition with other styles. Yeah, that is precisely because of the trips and throws. Those skills would be transferable to a judo match or stand-up wrestling...

what skills?
trips, and throws?...

The heart of my question was:
Is it your belief that the skill sets learned from Push Hands means no trips, sweeps, throws or punches, etc.?
And Do you feel that "good" Taiji does not use trips, sweeps, throws, punches, etc.?

But I don't have the calm endurance to dig through a circular reply that includes a great deal of word for word cut and paste of someone else’s thoughts and piece it together to figure out what you are really saying.

It's one of my many failings.

So, I thank you very much for considering my question.
Please forgive me if I've wasted your time.

☮☮☮

sorry, I too, may have misread the question

I dont quite get why people keep asking about trips, punching, throws ect. though it was understood that the skill gained from ph practice
would enable one to understand how to deal with those with out practicing some type of tech to do so directly.

had to go back and check the thread referenced.
I think its quite hard, to really get a feel for it, unless one is already headed in that direction most wont accept
it until they actually come in contact with it. In this sense its an evolution of thought and understanding coupled
with luck.

was just talking to a student of mine, his father used to run a famous boxing gym in SF
long ago. He mentioned that he felt MMA, is and will be the main event venue for combative sports and that
CMA had kind of missed the boat long ago.
I tend to agree.

In this thread, there are references to making or adding things to ph to make it more main stream. I never understand this
any style of CMA should be able to hold its own depending on skill level of practitioner. No need for some special event.

On the other hand, some promoters open ph events to all, which conversely often results that the taiji people end up getting
killed by others who never studied taiji but have high degree of skill in what ever art they come from.
Its kind of funny, and sad at the same time.

having helped judged some of these events, at the end I would take the winners and losers and ph with them pointing out
their mistakes.

I don't engage in the events anymore feeling that they detract in the study of the art,
that's just my feelings

[Steve James]

would enable one to understand how to deal with those with out practicing some type of tech to do so directly.

Well, I think the question was about whether trips and throws were skills. People thought you were suggesting that they didn't require skill.

But, afa understanding how to deal with those particular skills, it is difficult to believe that that a person can gain any skill at overcoming those things without practicing against them. And, even if it were true, everyone starts at "no skill" and works from there. That's especially true for tcc. It's ridiculous, imo, to try to gauge all tcc practitioners by the levels achieved by legendary masters. Even they, those legendary masters, didn't just learn tcc and then achieve the highest level. So, if there were videos of YLC being clumsy when dealing with an opponent, instead of appearing effortless, it's no slight against the art of tcc --which will never belong to a person.

[Bhassler]

There is a whole lot of baseless assumption and just plain nonsense in this thread. I really don't want to participate, but will offer a couple of observations based on direct experience (I know, not as valuable as obtuse references to imprecise made-up jargon) just in case some foolish young person has actually stuck with this thread and might get the wrong impression and spend years chasing magical qi faeries.

1. Chen is very, very soft
2. Very little force is used in Chen's techniques, even the ones that look like he's hitting someone or blasting them across the room.
3. Chen lets his opponent set the tone. If you're aggressive, he lets you come to him. If you run, he chases. If you want to stand there and do everything to keep from being thrown, he pokes at your vulnerabilites to show the openings.
4. He's taking it easy.

There's some great stuff there for anyone with eyes to see, regardless of style, internal/external, etc. For those who would prefer to stay behind their keyboards and talk shit, that's okay, too, because that's what the internet is for. I've certainly done my share of it. If I can get my PMS under control I may write up a review of the workshop in another thread.

[D_Glenn]

If I can get my PMS under control I may write up a review of the workshop in another thread.

Take some Midol and just do it!

Also, if you don't mind, could you compare and contrast to Liang Baiping?

.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
This is why when you wrestle with your opponent, you have to wrestle 15 rounds. After 10 rounds, your won't have any "brute force" left and you soon find out that "going against your opponent's power" just won't work. In the last 5 rounds, you will truly wrestle with "following/moving with your opponent's power". This kind of feeling will then become your "body experience" for the rest of your life.
SNIP

Interesting observation. At seminars, ZQ takes on anyone who is interested. so if you put this in "round" terms, this is exactly what he is doing.

The clash with the Hunyuan teacher was interesting. Clearly this guy was not only larger, but also had some skill of his own. Even so, a convincing pair of throws carried off by Chen. I'd add that the arm slaps and underhooks are bread and butter push hands techniques in Chen style.

There is a lot of comment here on how PH needs to be about different and/or softer skillsets. In the fixed stop PH, this is a valid. But when it comes to something less fixed and more free or even competitive - well, IMHO, the (over) emphasis on subtle skills is where Taiji has gone wrong. IMHO, it is far, far better to work with full power, then refine the power down, than to try to work very subtle, refined powers from the outset. The danger with the latter skillset - as seen in some of the American and Taiwanese "pushy pushy" competitions - is that when confronted with full power, the subtler skills fail.

[taiwandeutscher]

Taiwanese pushy pushy?

To forbid footsweps as in SJ or Judo doesn't mean that they don't use force, I mean brute force. Most westerners are gassed before halftime. If any thing can be said on those comps, it's not lack of force, but too much bullfighting.

Andy, the next worldcup is in autumn 2016, or the nationals in Oct. 2015. Didn't someone suggest you come over to get a better grasp of the MA situation over here?

[aelred]

There is a whole lot of baseless assumption and just plain nonsense in this thread. I really don't want to participate, but will offer a couple of observations based on direct experience (I know, not as valuable as obtuse references to imprecise made-up jargon) just in case some foolish young person has actually stuck with this thread and might get the wrong impression and spend years chasing magical qi faeries.

1. Chen is very, very soft
2. Very little force is used in Chen's techniques, even the ones that look like he's hitting someone or blasting them across the room.
3. Chen lets his opponent set the tone. If you're aggressive, he lets you come to him. If you run, he chases. If you want to stand there and do everything to keep from being thrown, he pokes at your vulnerabilites to show the openings.
4. He's taking it easy.

There's some great stuff there for anyone with eyes to see, regardless of style, internal/external, etc. For those who would prefer to stay behind their keyboards and talk shit, that's okay, too, because that's what the internet is for. I've certainly done my share of it. If I can get my PMS under control I may write up a review of the workshop in another thread.

This, +1

[daniel pfister]

In this thread, there are references to making or adding things to ph to make it more main stream. I never understand this
any style of CMA should be able to hold its own depending on skill level of practitioner. No need for some special event.

I agree, for the most part; however, I've always felt that people in the US were practicing a limited version of PH. For me it was never an issue of telling people not to do this technique or that, but rather encouraging them to try new things and relax the ridged preconceptions of their minds.

On the other hand, some promoters open ph events to all, which conversely often results that the taiji people end up getting
killed by others who never studied taiji but have high degree of skill in what ever art they come from.
Its kind of funny, and sad at the same time.

If they are defeated by others then that should just encourage them to practice harder. The story of Yang Lu-chan going outside of Chen village to test his art, and, not feeling it adequate, returning for more training, indicates the importance of testing oneself outside of the controlled comfort zone. Testing, failing, and then returning to train more indicate faith in TJQ's principles. Can people who don't do this really be said to have any faith at all in the art?

What I think is kind of funny and sad are people that only play push hands with compliant/weak/gullible partners and then pontificate about martial art skill building. This has been the detriment of TJQ for so many years.

[Steve James]

A bit off topic, but how about considering that tuishou is not limited to the hands. Well, the saying is that "the body is the hand." However, leg techniques are inherent in all cma and need to be practiced. Despite the claims that "taichi has no legs," there are indeed "sticky leg" exercises. Even without them, one's leg/s should be sensitive to attack just as much as one's hands. Moreover, it is possible to use hands and legs in a "taichi" way, as in the Yang "88" sanshou two person form.

It is true that phs practice trains sensitivity. Personally, I see little point in phs tournaments because the exercise is designed to be cooperative. Sure, it's possible to learn by being beaten; but both practitioners are supposed to be winners. Once the purpose becomes to unbalance the opponent, I see no reason to limit any technique --unless form points are being given.

The object of push hands is to learn a skill that one can use outside of push hands.

[daniel pfister]

A bit off topic, but how about considering that tuishou is not limited to the hands.

Indeed! And I think that is one point the original clip demonstrates. Someone comes in for a throw or leg sweep, you legs must react in similar ways as your hands do.

Personally, I see little point in phs tournaments because the exercise is designed to be cooperative.

Sounds like your problem is with the rules. Mine too. Basically, I think ph competitions should be like shuai jiao competitions without the jacket and points being given for being able to push someone out of the ring/off a platform. But then people don't call that push hands anymore. Oh well, to heck with'em!

[windwalker]

A bit off topic, but how about considering that tuishou is not limited to the hands.

Indeed! And I think that is one point the original clip demonstrates. Someone comes in for a throw or leg sweep, you legs must react in similar ways as your hands do.

Personally, I see little point in phs tournaments because the exercise is designed to be cooperative.

Sounds like your problem is with the rules. Mine too. Basically, I think ph competitions should be like shuai jiao competitions without the jacket and points being given for being able to push someone out of the ring/off a platform. But then people don't call that push hands anymore. Oh well, to heck with'em!

my last comments on this thread.

I guess I dont get it, with those that I've met and trained with in china, its pretty clear.
a lot of things are not done because for the most part they cant be if one really has what is called ting jin, most would know and understand this if they really had the skill.
this is why so much time is spent on developing it .
When I say cant be, I mean in the sense of understanding how to complete a circle, dostn matter what shape or when the circle is started one skill should be such that at on any point of it they should be able to complete it. its not about pressure or how much force, or what type of shape the force takes ect. its about when one can understand the intent of action. like riding a wave, if one can not do it, then they will get wiped out. the better surfers can handle bigger waves.

this word "cooperative" really dont like it, it is in the sense that both people understand what they'er working on and for,
just as in any other practice.
the practice is designed to teach, enhance, train and test different skill sets what ever they may be.

Had a taiji brother of mine who recently went back to china, while here he took on all comers and went around knocking on doors as the say.
none could stand, most if not all ended up on the ground regardless of style or approach used.
I didnt care to much for what he did because I felt that he was operating out of something that most of those that he encountered never had experienced, this includes some long time CMA people along with those from different styles.

Gorge Xu, http://chionline.com/power/xu.htm
a noted CMA practitioner told him he felt he had a very high level of skill not seen in this area.

this talks a little about my taiji brother

Featured presenter will be Master Zhao Guohong, who studied under Grandmaster Zhang in Beijing for only a few years. Zhao likes to say that he stopped copying Zhang’s form and just “stole his ideas.” In Beijing, he trained intensively with another student to develop the techniques that later made him the best of the best for the whole San Francisco bay area. During the four years he maintained a following of devoted push hands players, Zhao delivered his promise to make anyone who wanted to learn from him proficient within one year, with no fee. He will explain these ideas in his workshop and play with everyone and anyone. Expect the unexpected

http://www.pushingforpeace.org/maui-qi-fest/

he's back in beijing now.

I mention this because in China, and also Taiwan, from those that I have met they ask, "friendly or not" of its not, then almost anything goes with the exception that
if one is thrown to the ground its considered to be over.
taiji or any CMA art should be able to stand on its own, and be recognized as such, not in name only.

respect all veiw points just its seems that
some views are just too different.
waste of time IMO if not talking about the skill itself.
happy holidays to all.
d

[Steve James]

this word "cooperative" really dont like it, it is in the sense that both people understand what they'er working on and for,
just as in any other practice.

no understand

[windwalker]

this word "cooperative" really dont like it, it is in the sense that both people understand what they'er working on and for,
just as in any other practice.

no understand

in the sense that if its being tested, the other is really trying to not be "cooperative"
but is in participating in the test itself, understanding what is being tested.

the vibe I get from reading the post when people use this word seems to mean faked, or
over acted, or what ever. for most high level people they really have to scale way back
as at first touch for most people it would be over with,,,,no chasing the arms or reaching for the
body...

they allow people showing them that there is no place that is empty, and not place that is full
all can change.

[Steve James]

in the sense that if its being tested, the other is really trying to not be "cooperative"

Of course that is cooperation. Otherwise, no one would attack. And your entire argument about propriety and rudeness goes out the window since, if there's no agreement about rules --i.e., no cooperation-- then anything goes. Then it's a competition, and that's not what push hands is. And, if it is, one learns nothing from winning.