Taiji Tested (this time for real)

[windwalker]

Yeah. I think you can probably spend 50 years competing in push hands competitions, and thats equivalent to like, what, 6 months of professional BJJ competitions?

I've no idea what you mean, but I think most jiu jitsu matches are really boring to watch too, if that helps you feel good about yourself.

I meant it literally, not being funny or anything. If we are comparing practical experience with hands on competition, measuring it all against the main ideal in all applied martial arts (fighting, interacting with non compliance, etc), competing in high level Judo and BJJ event gives you a much, much closer experience to the ideal than competing in push hands matches. I said it because when i mentioned that the experience between the two guys is too damn different, someone actually provided "proof" of the taiji guys resume with push hands pedigree. I dont think Taiji was tested at all. I think that guy was tested, and he was eaten my a shark in one bite.

but all events are still "events" and have rules and all the things that go into the event itself.
in the end all is known.
If anyone here thinks they can enter a high level ph hands event with known contenders in it and win it, be my guest.



for the record I dont agree nor support ph events even after having judged some of them, but do recognize the skill
and level of the players who do compete in such events.



I never can really understand why with the varied nature of CMA that
one would not come to the conclusion that the approach or style itself was
what is thought to give one the advantage.
why study, n-pm, or hung gar, or wing chun,
or any of the many styles that CMA has produced.
on a CMA site, one would think that people would look for
or show examples of either themselves making it work
or others. Instead its seems to be the opposite.

with IMA, its always been a different case with the
emphases being on the how something was done, rather then the what.
The skill set, and skill development IME is quite different.

I think that guy was tested, and he was eaten my a shark in one bite

I would disagree, for stepping out of his practice, I though he held his own against a
contender that is known. what if the situation was reversed would it be the same?

or do most here think that most people on the "street"
will go for a take down?

[Josealb]

Everything still stands. BJJ and Judo competitions bring you closer to real fighting, than all the push hands competitions in the world combined. There can be no argument here. The closer you are to the real thing, the more competent you are at non-cooperative play. If the practical experience of one is pitted against the practical experience of the other, Bjj/judo/any grappling art will always win against taijiquan.

Keyword here is competition experience. Im not talking about experience outside of events.

[willywrong]

[quote="windwalker"]

I never can really understand why with the varied nature of CMA that
one would not come to the conclusion that the approach or style itself was
what is thought to give one the advantage.
why study, n-pm, or hung gar, or wing chun,
or any of the many styles that CMA has produced.
on a CMA site, one would think that people would look for
or show examples of either themselves making it work
or others. Instead its seems to be the opposite.

or do most here think that most people on the "street"
will go for a take down?[/quote)

I tend to agree with you here because I am quite sure that most people on this forum actually have very little idea of how to fight for real. My experience with street fighters is that they are one f**king cunning animal and will attack you with whatever they think will work. All manners and morality do not exist for these people in these situations. The original post I think demonstrated ability in a set environment, it would have been nice to have actually seen how he was doing it. It also like to mention that his compassion for his student that he threw to the floor seems to be lacking and I wouldn't consider this unsafe practice or demonstration.

[taiwandeutscher]

Well, those Taiwan phs guys train for mostly one reason only, which is the price money from the National Sports Meeting every yr. (no foreigners allowed!) So of course, they train for and in the rule set used in those competitions. And they train as hard as it gets, in that given frame. With that limited background, I think he did quite well against the Judo/BJJ champ, with a suddenly different rules set.
As I know how they train and with what attitude they go about training, I'm sure they would do good in any other rule sets, but only if there was money to be made. Young Taiwanese have no interest in becoming bad ass fighters as pure amateurs, for the sake of being bad ass. Only a hand full of guys would work so hard for their own satisfaction. It's a different world, most good fighters here I've met, have passed 40 yr. of age.

[Andy_S]

God! Even by RSF standards, there is a LOT of speculation on this thread. So, OK: Having trained and rassled with him, I will bite.

I reckon Chen ZQ would do OK against a standup grappler in pretty well any format for this simple reason. It is what he does and he does it every day, against anyone he can find. (He really likes to play with big foreigners.)

Granted, he is not in an Olympic Village: He is in Chen Village, so he rassles with who he can, rather than regular, world-class opposition. But still, he is very, very good at it. And he is the real deal - he is not some mystical, "unbeatable master." So sure: Against a world-class judoka or rassler, he might, indeed, go down. There again, he is very good at his game, so might hold his own. Taiji is not magic, but it offers some good skillsets, and ZQ has a firm grip on these.

And as noted; Taiji (and CMA in general) has a BIG hole it it: It does not include ground fighting. So what? It does not claim to. It is what it is.

And there is a question about what it works like when striking is added to the mix. My sense is that Ziqiang would be on firmer ground with that: Chen Taiji is full of short, nasty, hidden strikes - elbows to the skull, knees to the thigh, punches to the sack, etc - which work really nicely as an adjunct in the short, or clinch range. Also, note how ZQ used his fajing to push the guy down, rather than away and I am 99% sure he is holding back rather than applying full force - sweet.

BTW, when I was in the village in 2006 and asked to feel his shoulder strike, he offered me three.
First one just moved me - no real shock, though it would have been useful in combat to gain time and space for another move.
The second had more juice: It knocked me back and down about 20 feet: this was a legitimate technique on its own.
The third one? Awwww.... I declined.)

Also, note his finishing position after throwing, sweeping or projecting: He always makes a point of being in a dominant position after the throw. He is very clear on not being dragged down to the ground. (Would a gi or other jacket change this? Perhaps. Taiji rassling is no-gi rassling.)

What interests me the most about ZQ is how damned good he is going to be in (say) when he reaches "master" age in, say, his 50s. He is crazy about Taiji, trains like a madman, rassles everyday and is entirely practical not theoretical: If you ask him "How does this work?" He says, "Right, come here...." boom. Nobody from his father's generation - Chen Xiaowang, Chen Xiaoxing, Wang Xian, Zhu Tiencai - had that kind of experience, nor has this kind of approach.

Given that last point, I really think he is suited to be the art's future standard bearer.

But he is not superman; he is not unbeatable; and I don't think he claims to be either.

[Bao]

Found this on Facebook, from the guy in the vid, M Christovano Pacelli‎. It would probably best to invite him to the board if you want to discuss it further. But it's interesting so why not share this here... Not all of what he said, but I think that this condensed version will give you a clue.

Definitely puked a few times and am still a bit blurry, but here is something to spread out to everyone. Please keep in mind that, as far as I could tell, he was using about 50% of his power with me (The highest he has ever used on a video... everything else your going to see from the weekend was at the lower level of his fajin. Chen Laoshi was a gentleman for not hitting me with every strike in the book.
.....
As far as the ensuing comments... I am in a lot of pain, and seeing a little funny, but I can remember using all of my force. The man is no joke! Please enjoy. I need to lay down now..!

[windwalker]

I dont think it would make much difference.
there would still be the detractors asking for more and wondering why this or that.
as was mentioned the teacher looked like he was holding back using just enough so that it would be clearly understood
that it was real.

Andy s, who has had first hand experience with the teacher has mentioned his skill
instead of talking about how he did it, some talk about whether it was real or not .

Chen Laoshi was a gentleman for not hitting me with every strike in the book.

thought the teacher was quite skilled, and showed good restraint.

[Dmitri]

I am quite sure that most people on this forum actually have very little idea of how to fight for real.

You're quite sure eh? How many of the "most people on this forum" have you actually met in person/touched hands with?

It's a big forum, willywrong. 1500+ members.

Gotta love generalizations...

[middleway]

Chen Village fighters vs some Thais ...

(Chen style Tai chi chuan , fighters are all from wen county , henan province, the birth place of Tai chi kungfu)

Play a little game with yourself. skip to mid match and see if you can guess which is the Tai Chi guy and which is the Muay Thai Guy. I sure couldn't see for lookin!

Back to Chen ZQ, I think he has powerful and skilled stand up wrasslin and is 'happy to bang'. He clearly loves it too, so I sort of cant really understand why he isnt entering SJ, Wrestling or Judo Comps. He would get some great training in! Maybe loss of face?

[GrahamB]

"skip to mid match and see if you can guess which is the Tai Chi guy and which is the Muay Thai Guy. I sure couldn't see for lookin!"

That's easy - the Thai guys have much more snazzy shorts.

[leifeng]

Play a little game with yourself. skip to mid match and see if you can guess which is the Tai Chi guy and which is the Muay Thai Guy. I sure couldn't see for lookin!

How the fight would look like depends on the rules, gloves, gi.... Here is one of the Chen guys who fought in that Sanda match in two other formats. Different rules, different fights:
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/ejfoeVo4icY
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/_0RSkjCVvJU/

[windwalker]

Play a little game with yourself. skip to mid match and see if you can guess which is the Tai Chi guy and which is the Muay Thai Guy. I sure couldn't see for lookin!

How the fight would look like depends on the rules, gloves, gi.... Here is one of the Chen guys who fought in that Sanda match in two other formats. Different rules, different fights:
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/ejfoeVo4icY
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/_0RSkjCVvJU/

wow so where is all the training and faijin, that the chen stylist are noted for. .
in this clip they bypass the hand/arm contact and go straight for the body contact.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=371873462977438
the op clip
at 0:50 he issues to the the others upper chest/neck/ and knocks him complete back.
look at the differences in skill, level and usage
he uses much more control of the elbow or what we "my group" sometime refer to as 2nd ring power to control or neutralize the other with.

compare the clips to


notice there dosnt seem to be any weight divisions, thats real skill.
one is known by the skill itself.

the same ideas put to use but IMO more honest as the training is reflective of actual and intended usage.
some on RSF have said that they feel others should compete in taiji push hands, maybe the taiji pushhands for those who do compete
should go look at the other events and compete in them.



ssireum, woman competing, wow, the guys are pretty tough.

I dont feel taiji guys need a special format to compete in.
what they do need, IMO is coaches who understand the uniqueness of the art, and develop this so that
there is no mistaking it for anything else. It would seem that for those who do compete that at this point in time they are more concerned with
not losing then showcasing the art.

for others like the one in OP clip. and others they dont feel the need to compete as
what they do, and teach is their art. If others are interested they can always attend a seminar
as many do and some have done.

[Ba-men]

fake... Nuff said

[Ba-men]

fake... Nuff said vid is bogus

[willywrong]

I am quite sure that most people on this forum actually have very little idea of how to fight for real.

You're quite sure eh? How many of the "most people on this forum" have you actually met in person/touched hands with?

It's a big forum, willywrong. 1500+ members.

Gotta love generalizations...

Well if you love generalisations try this one. Millions of people believe in Christianity and that Jesus rose from the dead. I don't so that makes me wrong/right. The only people I trust on this forum are the ones that have the balls to put up video of themselves not others and not just words. I don't care whether they're good or bad because everybody's at a different level but this forum like most forums tends to be full of people of words not people of deeds. I'm not even gonna qualify this statement with (imho). So I suggest you take your anger and go and sit on it.