Taiji Tested (this time for real)

[jaime_g]

This is against a hunyuan taiji teacher.

[wayne hansen]

He showed his level of skill when he couldn't get anywhere and drew the guys attention to his foot and tried a cheat shot.
He is lucky the other guy was a gentleman when he started knee shots and slapping
He didn't come well out of this

[Oliver 101]

This is against a hunyuan taiji teacher.

This clearly shows his real skill level. He´s struggling and using all of his strength.
Brute force, professional against an amateur. Not impressed.

[Ian]

I heard you guys like throws.

This is what good throws and counters look like, FWIW.





There's also no need to ask

-How would they look if they grappled trained grapplers?
-Are they being tested "for real"?
-Are their opponents skilled in anything at all?
-What would they look like if they used 100% of their power?
-Are they "playing nice"?

Ad nauseam...

[Dmitri]

Again, check the size/weight difference. Once there's some skill - which all of his opponents seem to have, to varying degrees - a (much) bigger guy will have a (bigger) advantage.
I just Googled that this guy is 125lbs... which makes all of his opponents giants in comparison.

I would love for the critics here to find a guy who knows what they're doing and is heavier than them by at least 50%, and see how effortless and amazing they look going against him.

edited:
not much to say

happy holidays

Haha... you too. I try not to go into things too deeply anymore -- I find more and more that the ratio of the effort (amount of typing) to the result (clear detailed view of what I think/how I feel about something) is way too high.

[fisherman]

[/quote]I try not to go into things too deeply anymore -- I find more and more that the ratio of the effort (amount of typing) to the result (clear detailed view of what I think/how I feel about something) is way too high. [/quote]
Exactly. Video can only represent so much of what is happening. We all know that these arts have a heavy emphasis on touch and sensitivity of which Taiji is supposed to be renown for. It appears to me that Mr. Chen relies heavily on relaxation and sensitivity and that's why I decided to go to the workshop, to hopefully get a better understanding of some of the things happening in these vids.

[leifeng]

If there was a 6ft tall Taichi guy with half of CZQ's tai chi skills most of the critics would be busy writing songs about him. Size is a b****.

[C.J.W.]

Having watched several clips of CZQ's PH matches with various seminar attendees, I can't help but wonder if both sides were following the same set of rules.

It seems to me that while his opponents were mostly following conventional PH etiquette, he was using SJ techniques like knee bumps, trips, sweeps, and hip throws all over the place to gain advantage. The shoulder strikes he loves so much are what PH players here refer to as "issuing cold power" 放冷勁, or suddenly breaking the rhythm and sneak attacking your partner in PH. I am not sure about China, but if someone tried using those moves during a friendly PH exchange in Taiwan, it'd normally be considered extremely rude and a sure sign that they are looking for trouble.

[leifeng]

He is mostly following the Chen village competition formats and I think people should use these things on him too, after all that's what Taiji is all about but the whole cold or rude thing is just irrelevant for this art. Even a traditional fixed PH exercise gets completely meaningless without shoulder and elbow. One of the first things you learn in PH is how to turn the opponent's push into an elbow. The sooner we can remove these restrictions the sooner we can bring taiji back on its tracks.

[windwalker]

Again, check the size/weight difference. Once there's some skill - which all of his opponents seem to have, to varying degrees - a (much) bigger guy will have a (bigger) advantage.
I just Googled that this guy is 125lbs... which makes all of his opponents giants in comparison.

I would love for the critics here to find a guy who knows what they're doing and is heavier than them by at least 50%, and see how effortless and amazing they look going against him.

edited:
not much to say

happy holidays

Haha... you too. I try not to go into things too deeply anymore -- I find more and more that the ratio of the effort (amount of typing) to the result (clear detailed view of what I think/how I feel about something) is way too high.

haha very correct and happy holidays to you and your family

really dont agree with the assessments regarding whats shown of the teachers skill, its consistent with chen style IME from those I've met both here and in China,
which from my POV tends to be more of a body method. Being a body method it will always run into the limitations of the body as shown in the clips when another uses skills that are based on what I call "mind"

with a "mind" method size, strength, ect don't matter as much or much at all for those skilled in its use because it doesn't rely on them.

on top of that I also felt he was a poor sport in that, the other guy, was not really trying to go all out to get him,,,,he was holding back.

the same thing more or less happened here.



in this instance the roles are reversed IMO. with the other teacher bring a poor sport for what was supposed to be a "demo" as I understand it.
never the less it shows the limitations of a "body" focused method.

note: not talking whether the teacher has skill or not, just address the the type of skill, and obvious limitations when confronted with others either using different skill sets or
having a very big disparity in size, weight using the same skill sets.

[windwalker]

He is mostly following the Chen village competition formats and I think people should use these things on him too, after all that's what Taiji is all about but the whole cold or rude thing is just irrelevant for this art. Even a traditional fixed PH exercise gets completely meaningless without shoulder and elbow. One of the first things you learn in PH is how to turn the opponent's push into an elbow. The sooner we can remove these restrictions the sooner we can bring taiji back on its tracks.

right

the sooner people understand what do at the contact point they then will start to understand how to use the shoulder, elbow ect is some very different ways.
He was not in the Chen, village he was in this format dealing with the person in front of him, by your logic, the other guy could basically do what he wanted to do which from looking at the clips he did not. he kept to his sense of sportsman ship, and rule set.

[leifeng]

So when you go to a Chen village guy's seminar is it you who should adapt to their rules or is the instructor who should adapt to each participant's rules?
By your logic if you go to a Chinese restaurant is it you who should be willing to eat Chinese food or is it the restaurant that should be willing to prepare the food from each customer's hometown?
But honestly if it was me I would ban any kind of push hands outside of training and would modify the MMA rules for taiji competitions. Anything else is just ridiculous.

[D_Glenn]

Having watched several clips of CZQ's PH matches with various seminar attendees, I can't help but wonder if both sides were following the same set of rules.

It seems to me that while his opponents were mostly following conventional PH etiquette, he was using SJ techniques like knee bumps, trips, sweeps, and hip throws all over the place to gain advantage. The shoulder strikes he loves so much are what PH players here refer to as "issuing cold power" 放冷勁, or suddenly breaking the rhythm and sneak attacking your partner in PH. I am not sure about China, but if someone tried using those moves during a friendly PH exchange in Taiwan, it'd normally be considered extremely rude and a sure sign that they are looking for trouble.

I also see the same thing, CZQ is doing a subdued SJ while the other guys don't know it, or recognize that he's using SJ. Shuai Jiao (Throw Tumble)

脚 Jiao, is a homonym, so Shuai Jiao has a lot of 脚摔 Leg Throws (Jiao Shuai), but 脚 means the whole leg, including the hips, so it also has some 'over the hip' throws, like CZQ uses on a few people, which look like a Judo throw, but most of SJ is just leg trips, which to the unsuspecting victim, seem like accidents, only they're designed to do that, and studied in combination, as he counters, you counter his counter, and so on...

.

[D_Glenn]

Saying it's SJ is not a put-down. One has to start at the bottom to reach the top, but the difference between skill levels is really only in the experience and understanding gained by hiking up the mountain/ the experiences. (I can't believe I resorted to some fortune cookie WD-esque sayings, lol )

From some Shuai Jiao texts that iWalk had posted years ago:

順人之勢，借人之力：摔跤講究“借勁使勁”，“以化勁”，跤諺有云：”順力破之為巧，逆力破之為拙”。

[my quick translation:] Follow the opponent's momentum. Borrow the opponent's power/ strength/ force (li): Shuai Jiao precept "Jie Jin Shi Jin" (borrow power [instead] of exerting power), or classical "Hua Jin" (Transforming Power). SJ classical saying: "Following/ Moving with [the opponent's] power to defeat it is skillful; Going against [the opponent's] power to defeat it is considered clumsy, awkward."

{edit-- or Wuyizidi's translation of ”順力破之為巧，逆力破之為拙”。 "If you neutralize the attack by going along with his force, that's clever use of force/skill. If you solve the problem by going directly against it, that's awkward/brute force".}

[I have to go practice now but maybe someone else can translate the rest?]

。意思都是說，在摔跤中力量的運用主要依靠巧勁。兩人對摔時均在不停地運動，應善於掌握人的運動規律，從而把握對方。例如：對方用右手搶抓我的左偏門，其上體勢必向我左後方運動，我便可藉其力的走向採用克敵招術，將其力化解。 “順勢”“借力”貴在“快”與“巧”。 “快”指以迅雷不及掩耳之勢讓對手防不勝防；“巧”指借力用力的方向、角度、力度要恰到好處。做到這些，首先應懂得人在摔跤中用力的規律和各種摔跤動作的技術特點。

.

[Steve James]

My friend Mario (a "CMC" guy) at a Chen Village push hands tournament. Is it tcc or SJ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNXnxCpjUNM