Zhaobao Tuishou

[cloudz]

Sure, you can say what you like now David, but for example when you popped up back around here you posted and discussed (and defended them to the hilt) so many Russian empty force clips it wasn't even funny. That's about as far removed from what I think is good CIMA as can be. You clearly thought that was close to what you were doing or working towards in your "taiji" otherwise why would you post them so much and defend them so much? You can't deny this it's there for anyone to see. But sure you have slowly started to change your tune. Because basically your credibility was falling through the floor around here..

I feel sorry for the others round here who fall for your waffle, keep chasing your mind control super powers.

my point was that if one reacts on the intent level, many of the things mentioned either dont work or work very differently.
trying to sweep someone working on the intent level even with their weight committed dosnt work out to well.
need to their mind to be committed too.

More waffle that's neither here nor there. If your weight is really committed forward then either your intent did that on purpose or you did it without thinking. If you are saying your mind or intent does not commit the weight, then you have not committed properly you are controlling it or staying relatively balance between your legs. It could be like a fake basically. No different to throwing a fake punch. Or you simply are not committing or shifting in the normal sense understood when people walk forwards. Stop trying to make things deeper and more mysterious than they really are. You cannot cheat physics, if weight is shifted/commited forward and the foot is taken away there is no where to catch yourself and that is what is used against you to sweep you, timing being important. You cannot hover in the air like Yoda in star wars balancing yourself on an air cushion.

[cloudz]

Are we really talking about telepathy now when we say intent? Be honest guyz.

Read Windwalkers posting history and the clips he used to post. It will be very evident that he thinks that is the case and his training seems largely based around this central idea. At least that's how he has largely been communicating it since he got back here, that's when he hasn't been jumping on the internal body mechanics bandwagon... because when you strip away at his explanations they don't really explain anything that he says they do, that cannot be understood above what people already know and understand about the 3 major CIMA and how they work; there is nothing left but "magic"..

[Bao]

The 6 harmony can be used for offense, but it should not be used for defense. The reason is simple. When you move your arm, if you also move your leg at the same time, your opponent can take advantage on your body unification. When you play defense, you may want to separate your arm movement away from your leg movement. This way your "intend" will be difficult to be detected by your opponent.

If you agree that by "disconnecting the body (the opposite of the body unification) in order to hide the intend" then we are talking about the same thing.

Exactly! +100

This is why there's no point of being connected unless there's a contact with the opponent. And only if one is in control of distance and movement. People think that "noodle tai chi" is a bad thing. I believe that relying too much on connected structure is a bad thing. One of my teachers is a real noodle. You can never feel any connection, never move his feet or legs from doing anything with his arm. If "no connection" and "no structure" is so detrimental for tai chi, why then does he always win against those who practice and rely on a stable and connected structure?

[GrahamB]

The 6 harmony can be used for offense, but it should not be used for defense. The reason is simple. When you move your arm, if you also move your leg at the same time, your opponent can take advantage on your body unification. When you play defense, you may want to separate your arm movement away from your leg movement. This way your "intend" will be difficult to be detected by your opponent.

If you agree that by "disconnecting the body (the opposite of the body unification) in order to hide the intend" then we are talking about the same thing.

Exactly! +100

This is why there's no point of being connected unless there's a contact with the opponent. And only if one is in control of distance and movement. People think that "noodle tai chi" is a bad thing. I believe that relying too much on connected structure is a bad thing. One of my teachers is a real noodle. You can never feel any connection, never move his feet or legs from doing anything with his arm. If "no connection" and "no structure" is so detrimental for tai chi, why then does he always win against those who practice and rely on a stable and connected structure?

Probably because he's playing a weird face-saving game called "push hands" - I'm not sure noodle-chi translates well to punches or a self defence situation.

[leifeng]

You don't need to move the hands and feet together in large circles to have the 6 harmonies. The whole point of training Taiji is to get the connections from inside so that you can hide them and trick the opponent.

[Bao]

Probably because he's playing a weird face-saving game called "push hands" - I'm not sure noodle-chi translates well to punches or a self defence situation.

When did I mention PH?

He practiced for William Chen and has the same punching power. He practiced judo for twenty years before "surrendering" to tai chi and hardly any one can throw him. (Haven't seen anyone yet).

But as you mention PH, earlier he would go to visit Wudang (pttc) and Chen guys to test their rough games. I never saw one even close to beat him. He handled them with ease to say the least. But all of them still thinks that he has a too lazy style and that it looks like noodle tai chi. Overall, he is very good, but not one of the best of my teachers.

Sure you need to understand connection and structure. But you need to know when to use it and when to disconnect. Disconnecting can be just as powerful as connecting.

[Bao]

You don't need to move the hands and feet together in large circles to have the 6 harmonies. The whole point of training Taiji is to get the connections from inside so that you can hide them and trick the opponent.

But if you are connected, your opponent still can use tingjin to feel it. The eyes can be deceiving, and that is why only the touch should decide what to do.

[leifeng]

At higher levels when a taiji guy disconnects a small part of the system like an elbow or a shoulder it's because he is sure that he is connected everywhere else and that he has the ability to connect it again very fast.
So it's more the art of hiding than disconnection. When your body gets connected after decades of practice you can't really disconnect it.

Edit: Connection is like an electric circuit. When the circuit is connected you can turn it on and off in an instant but when it's not connected you can never turn it on. So if someone doesn't connect the body through years of both internal and external exercise he is always disconnected no matter how he tries to imitate moving his body in harmony. On the other hand when someone is connected he is always connected no matter how he moves his body parts.

[GrahamB]

Probably because he's playing a weird face-saving game called "push hands" - I'm not sure noodle-chi translates well to punches or a self defence situation.

When did I mention PH?

He practiced for William Chen and has the same punching power. He practiced judo for twenty years before "surrendering" to tai chi and hardly any one can throw him. (Haven't seen anyone yet).

But as you mention PH, earlier he would go to visit Wudang (pttc) and Chen guys to test their rough games. I never saw one even close to beat him. He handled them with ease to say the least. But all of them still thinks that he has a too lazy style and that it looks like noodle tai chi. Overall, he is very good, but not one of the best of my teachers.

Sure you need to understand connection and structure. But you need to know when to use it and when to disconnect. Disconnecting can be just as powerful as connecting.

So how are people making him noodle if he's not doing push hands with them? What's the format for what you're talking about?

[NoSword]

This is why there's no point of being connected unless there's a contact with the opponent. And only if one is in control of distance and movement. People think that "noodle tai chi" is a bad thing. I believe that relying too much on connected structure is a bad thing. One of my teachers is a real noodle. You can never feel any connection, never move his feet or legs from doing anything with his arm. If "no connection" and "no structure" is so detrimental for tai chi, why then does he always win against those who practice and rely on a stable and connected structure?

+1

Probably because he's playing a weird face-saving game called "push hands" - I'm not sure noodle-chi translates well to punches or a self defence situation.

In my experience, the contrived game we call 'push hands' allows for a lot more tension than actual combat, not less. Systema guys are 'noodlier' than the noodliest taiji practitioners I have encountered, and they can definitely hit hard -- not just the 'masters' but mediocre practitioners as well. Whether they can "defend themselves" is more of a subjective call -- suffice to say my Systema teacher has a law enforcement background that is, frankly, scary to me.

That being said, I think one stands to miss a lot by skipping over the study of 'stable and connected' structures. In that regard I'm grateful that I went through the traditional arts.

IMO a lot of the benefit of learning to keep a relatively rigid, classical form has nothing to do with combat at all -- it's where a lot of the health benefits come from. The TCMA's are fighting systems and exercise programs at the same time, which give them a lot of their holistic appeal. However, sometimes these objectives are at cross-purposes.

FWIW, the aforementioned Systema teacher had decades of experience in hard styles before settling on Systema. I can't imagine he'd have nearly as much practical skill without bringing that to the table. "Noodling" is just one part of the puzzle.

AK

[cloudz]

It's not cut and dry which is were ideas like yin and yang or empty and full start to be useful as well as cross body connection. You will train to have connection, but at some point your intent can and will control what you are doing and where. Things will be on and off very quickly. Connecting becomes "full" and no connection becomes "empty". When you have weight on one side of your body you cannot empty it or disconnect it - down that side. And you cannot fill or connect down the empty side vertically. You can work across the body though, whether central or weighted to one side.

Sometimes to disconnect or empty somewhere is useful as a solid structure can be moved and you may not want that. You can open and relax a joint eg. shoulder so it yields to incoming force but you are connected by muscle tissue and fascia at the end of the day so there are always limits to that, or you can have an arm empty (wrist and elbow move freely) but you are still connected from you shoulder to everywhere else.

As Leifeng points out your opponent won't be able to discern this connection in the rest of you, because your arm is "empty". I agree with both sides on the whole connect/disconnect discussion - both can be useful, the trick is knowing when to use what and where. Generally when you issue you connect, when you yield you empty or disconnect in the proximity of the contact - unless you can yield by adhering and following and keeping the body connected which is also possible if you can move and step freely enough; but that is not always the case.

Keeping a firm connection throughout is generally not what is needed as you can be moved about through it. However there are ways to dissipate and re direct incoming forces that don't involve losing the connection or disconnecting per se - this can be achieved through internal movement, cross body receiving and issuing, 'turning', spiralling powered by dantien- - that kind of thing.

Those are some of the little edges you can get from internal body mechanics. They are not a panacea though - you still need to learn how to wrestle/ grapple.

[cloudz]

Probably because he's playing a weird face-saving game called "push hands" - I'm not sure noodle-chi translates well to punches or a self defence situation.

When did I mention PH?

He practiced for William Chen and has the same punching power. He practiced judo for twenty years before "surrendering" to tai chi and hardly any one can throw him. (Haven't seen anyone yet).

But as you mention PH, earlier he would go to visit Wudang (pttc) and Chen guys to test their rough games. I never saw one even close to beat him. He handled them with ease to say the least. But all of them still thinks that he has a too lazy style and that it looks like noodle tai chi. Overall, he is very good, but not one of the best of my teachers.

Sure you need to understand connection and structure. But you need to know when to use it and when to disconnect. Disconnecting can be just as powerful as connecting.

So how are people making him noodle if he's not doing push hands with them? What's the format for what you're talking about?

I'm not sure why you're getting at him. Do you keep a connected structure everywhere all the time when you do stand up grappling/ wrestling ?
If your arm is connected from wrist to elbow to shoulder and connected to your body - you/ your centre/ your body can be controlled through your arm. "disconnecting" is a way that you can avoid that. It is basically no different to what JW was describing.

[cloudz]

At higher levels when a taiji guy disconnects a small part of the system like an elbow or a shoulder it's because he is sure that he is connected everywhere else and that he has the ability to connect it again very fast.
So it's more the art of hiding than disconnection. When your body gets connected after decades of practice you can't really disconnect it.

.

nice. sometimes you also have space to move into.

I think this bit is more of a semantic disagreement with Bao than anything else. The words can get in the way sometimes..

[NoSword]

If your arm is connected from wrist to elbow to shoulder and connected to your body - you/ your centre/ your body can be controlled through your arm.

This is only a problem if your game is based on not allowing your opponent to move your center. Once you learn how to float your root and move your feet, your opponent can move you however he likes and you will still have a platform to act from.

One of the great paradoxes in MA is that the more vulnerable you make yourself to your opponent's advances, the more easily you can control him. Similarly, any time you are able to control your opponent, he should also be able to control you. If he can't, it's just a question of his level of skill.

AK

[leifeng]

I think using the word empty is better than the word disconnected. I had problems understanding this before. Before I used to imitate my teacher and disconnect my arm and shoulder in PH but it never worked for me. When I asked my teacher he said that it was too early and I wasn't tong enough to do that. So I stopped trying to fake it and just kept building a solid structure. Now that I am more open and have some peng I understand it better. In my understanding tong means being connected. First step is to build the connection until you have peng and then you can start to use or hide the peng in your arm.