Mian Quan

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Mian Quan

Postby bviru_xin on Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:13 pm

Stumbled upon this clip today.

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Re: Mian Quan

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:56 pm

Very nice heavy hands. Similar to Tongbei.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby Dajenarit on Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:17 pm

I really like the concepts and training in Tong bei. I need to learn some soon.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby bviru_xin on Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:30 am

Cant find any other videos on Mian Quan. But fins few articles on this style - sounds very interesting-

"Mian Quan is an extremely close range style that relies on use of the elbow, shoulder and hip as much as the fist or foot. Key to the fighting strategy is the ability to get close, fast. Footwork is extremely important."

http://www.kungfu-taichi.com/servlet/kungfoo/Action/Resource/ResourceKey/1765
http://www.kung-fu.se/halsa/mian_quan.htm
http://www.doubledragonalliance.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=380%3Aa-profile-of-mian-quan-boxing&catid=31%3Ageneral&Itemid=29&lang=zh

Anyone here know more or practice this style.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:27 am

Dong Haichuan learned many different martial arts in his lifetime and this Mian Quan is thought to be one of them as some of the same techniques and shenfa are seen in the Li Trigram system: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22634

The spinal movement is still what we call 'Bolang Jin' (Surging Wave power) but in the Li Trigram it's more become more refined and the Li Trigram ☲ has an empty line in the middle of two solid lines which signifies that the Dantian should unseen, and emphasis is on the whipping movement of just the spinal column.

There's some other videos of the same teacher but they don't have sound. There's probably some orginal footage on youku or similar?

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Last edited by D_Glenn on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby bviru_xin on Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:59 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Dong Haichuan learned many different martial arts in his lifetime and this Mian Quan is thought to be one of them as some of the same techniques and shenfa are seen in the Li Trigram system: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22634

The spinal movement is still what we call 'Bolang Jin' (Surging Wave power) but in the Li Trigram it's more become more refined and the Li Trigram ☲ has an empty line in the middle of two solid lines which signifies that the Dantian should unseen, and emphasis is on the whipping movement of just the spinal column.

There's some other videos of the same teacher but they don't have sound. There's probably some orginal footage on youku or similar?

.


Thanks D_Glenn for the details. I have found some informaton about this style in this thread http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13533 .

by kenneth fish on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:18 am

"The Mianquan of the article originated in Hunan province. Several very skilled teachers of the system (which is indeed very rare) have been in teaching in Shanghai since the 1980's. It looks nothing like Taiji. Mrs. Zhu Suyi, whom taught me Tongbei, XIngyi and Bagua also taught me a portion of the Mianquan system. Mianquan is a complete system, with equal emphasis on gang and rou, lots of coiling and power training. There were at least a dozen open hand forms. Very application oriented as well - Mrs. Zhu showed me a short knife (like a dagger) set and applications that were genuinely frightening.

Mrs. Zhu also used to say that Chen taiji was based on Mianquan, but I would tend to doubt that. The use of force, and the movements in general, don't seem all that similar. In the late 1950's and early 1960's Mrs. Zhu was assisting Chen Panling teaching Taiji - a number of Chen Panling's students still practice the basic Mianquan exercises.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:04 pm

Here's a Mian Quan text that pretty much is the same training philosophies we have and use in our Yin style Baguazhang:

[sorry it's not translated though]

古绵拳
古绵拳是师孟关宇修习清风道人流传下来的古绵拳,并加入自己的一整套特色心得而开创的一个珍贵拳种。在中国内家拳历史上,曾出现过无数显赫一时的好拳法,但最终都难逃消声匿迹的厄运。可幸的是,即使在今天,古绵拳的真传也尚未消失,或许这就是当今中国保存最为完整的古拳法之一。
古绵拳保存了内家拳最古老的风范:刚柔并济、内外兼修。同时,古绵拳又不同于古拳法的虚无和浮夸,现在的几代古绵拳门人,通过自己毕生的努力,把古绵拳的理论转化为可以用现代科学来解释的科学理论。
古绵拳讲究“松”、“紧”合一,能巧妙地运用“刚”、“柔”之间的关系,格斗时可以发力极猛,又可以“四两拨千斤”。正所谓“刚是柔的刚,柔是刚的柔,是柔是刚是我非我”。
古绵拳和许多内家拳一样,讲究整体发力,通过一系列有效的锻炼,可以达到聚全身力为一点的境界,从而“无坚不摧”、“势如破竹”。
是否打人的拳太多,能挨打的拳太少呢?古绵拳中有一套比较奇特的功夫,大家或许都听到过它的名字——“金钟罩”。金钟罩是练习者通过“内练气、外练骨”等一系列训练,才能达到的境界,修炼成功之后,人体肋骨的肋膜会充长起来,别人若是轻轻抚摸,会觉得此人的整个胸骨像是整个的一块,中间没有空隙。著名绵拳大师陆凤池,便是金钟罩的大行家。
古绵拳的的最高境界是四劲齐出,其中后面两个劲被称为“内劲”、“髓劲”。从“内劲”开始,绵拳就从后天化为先天,因为人的体能是有极限的,只有从根本上转化人的体质,激发人体潜能,才可以突破体能的极限。“髓劲”也就是传说中的“练气入骨”,其实这种说法还不对,应该说成“采药入骨”。清风道人属于全真龙门一脉,这便是全真龙门“金丹大道”的最高级功法。
二。发劲
古绵拳素以发劲刚猛著称于世,那么她的发劲对比于其他拳种,又有什么鲜明特点呢?
首先,古绵拳的发劲训练方法有独到之处。
眼下许多传统武术在训练发劲时,往往注重架子的“形”,在潜意识里,他们认为“形”的准确与否,直接关系到发劲的大小,甚至提倡练习者花费几年、十几年的时间去练习一个简单的动作。或许期间有学生会问:“为什么我的发劲练不大?为什么要不断重复这个简单的动作?”此时,老师们就会告诉他们的学生:“发劲不大是因为动作不准或练习时间不够长,越是简单的动作,越容易出功夫。”凡是这类拳,皆有误人子弟之嫌!
道有道理,拳有拳理,若是你练了几年的拳,却又不知这样练的目的是什么或者为什么这样练,那我可以很不客气的说,你是白练。
从人体的构造来说,筋骨、肌肉、韧带等,是发劲大小的根本性元素。肌肉要不要?要,但我们要的是那种高强度、高密度的肌肉,并不是吃激素搞出来的肌肉。筋骨要不要?要,古绵拳的发劲对于筋骨的要求相当之高。韧带要不要?当然也要,俗话说筋长力大,这筋便是指的韧带。以上是发劲的物理组成部分,好,分析完了,现在我们调转头想想,以往的老师们所强调的架子,到底与发劲的大小有多少直接联系?
总结起来看,发劲的大小与架子的准确与否其实并无太大关系,学到一个架子时,我们得看看这个架子是否有利于上文提到的三个方面,若是有利,则能练出发劲,若是不利,那你就别玩了,不如回家睡觉去。
古绵拳的发劲训练,全都围绕着这三个部分,希望通过练习者的不断努力,改善人体组织结构,将人体本身阻碍发劲的元素降低到最小,从而达到一个发劲“刚、猛、迅、脆”的境界。
三、打势。
介绍完发劲,我们再来看看古绵拳的打势。
打势,也就是将训练的成果运用到实战中的一种方法,古绵拳的打势,也就称为“绵拳散手”。
其实,打势这个字眼并不新鲜,流传至今传统的武术基本都有自己的打势,只不过,打势也有个是否实用、是否合理的问题。
许多流传至今的传统武术,在打势上也有许些要求,但最终在上了比武场后,往往就看不到练习者数年所学的拳法的影子了,甚至即不会自己的打势,又不会流行的散打,可悲之至。
是什么原因造成了传统武术“不会打”呢?原因是打势不实用或者说打势不合理。
很多传统武术练习者,他们一辈子就练了几套架子,耍得虎虎生风,在与同门的师兄弟们玩起拳时,威猛得很。可一旦遇到门外之人,别人不按他的架子来耍,那么立刻变成一记像样的拳都不会了,甚至搞得和流氓斗殴时差不多。一套拳法的打势只是凭空想象,不能见势打势,这就是不合理的根源。
好的打势,应该具备哪些条件呢?
第一,“拳有八面劲”。因为你无法预料对手会怎样攻击或者攻击的发劲大小,因此你必须掌握在尽可能多的时候发出别人所不能发出的劲。换句话说,你能打的我也能打,你打不了的我也能打。
第二,能对付任何攻击方法(用武器的除外)。你不能指定对手用拳或是用脚来攻击,也不能指定对手从什么地方攻击,所以,一个好的打势,必须在任何时候最有效的保存自己,在打击别人的同时,不受太大的创伤。
第三,见势打势,有连手无套路。这是最重要的,也是古绵拳的打势精华。绵拳主张见势打势,一切以对手的行动为基础,她完全摆脱了传统意义上的套路,可以说是“无招之招”。不过,绵拳也有一些简单的连手,这些连手每个都是威力很大的发劲,用巧妙的办法把他们组合起来,形成一系列快如闪电的连打,给对手致命的伤害。
总结一下。单练架子,而又不说理的拳法,往往也没有实用的打势,只有从根本上改变人体发劲的能力,才可以做到“见势打势”。
四、基本问题答疑。
古绵拳是内家还是外家?
古绵拳继承古绵拳,属于全真教清风真人一系的内家拳种。分别一个拳种是内家还是外家,首先要明确内家与外家的区别是什么。如果你是初学者,那么内家外家对你来说并无太大差别,适当练习一段时间之后,在拳法上出了一定的成绩,此时,就成为了内外家的分水岭。内家讲究“整”,以练内气强化人体内部组织,外家一般不练气,他们借助外物,以各种形式强化人体的外部组织结构。外家功是死的,给了时间,自然回报给你,不过,终究还是有个极限。内家功是活的,因为练气讲究悟性,有些人很容易成,有些人一辈子练不成,不过,虽然内家功难练,他却没有人体最大极限的障碍,至少这个障碍还没有人触及过。
整劲是什么,与内家外家有没有分别?
整劲指的是力的传递,上下前后左右,所有的力都能传递到任何一个部位。整不整,在于腰。内家练气,腰上以气为功,外家不练气,多数绑一根“英雄带”,借助外物形成原始的整劲,带子抽掉,什么功夫都没了。
内气是什么,内劲是什么,内力又是什么?
内力等同于内劲,指的是人体一部分自发的,不能受人的意志所控制的力,例如你起床不由自主的伸懒腰。
内气是人通过意识修炼出来,唯独可以被意识所控制的先天之气,又被称为“元气”。
说来也有意思,内气也是唯一可以控制内劲的东西,因此,练习内劲、控制内劲时,最好的方式就是修炼内气。

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Re: Mian Quan

Postby bviru_xin on Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:11 pm

Thanks D_Glenn . Taking your advise, checked in youku and found some inetersting videos. It seems like a style specialises on ebow and cqc techniques and it looks like the Yang Mian system as mentioned in the other thread ..

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzAzMTE4ODg4.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDIzNDk3NTIw.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDI1NDU4ODQ0.html
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:15 am

I met an Aussie guy a few years ago who did the Yang Mian system. He showed me a few basic excercises. He had some clips on his laptop of Push Hands and people chopping large stones with their hands. He had pretty good iron body skills himself I remember.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby AnotherMonkey on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:40 pm

bviru_xin wrote:Thanks D_Glenn . Taking your advise, checked in youku and found some inetersting videos. It seems like a style specialises on ebow and cqc techniques and it looks like the Yang Mian system as mentioned in the other thread ..

Which other threat?
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:52 pm

chenyaolong wrote:I met an Aussie guy a few years ago who did the Yang Mian system. He showed me a few basic excercises. He had some clips on his laptop of Push Hands and people chopping large stones with their hands. He had pretty good iron body skills himself I remember.


There is a guy who trains in the park I train in every morning
He is only there on occasions and does yang mien
He goes non stop for an hour or so and has some interesting exercises
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby I-mon on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:42 pm

I've known quite a few dudes over the last 10 years that practice Yang Mian. It seems like an excellent system, they all developed unusual power fairly quickly, and it's beautifully "formless" and three dimensional. Lacking in footwork though, from what I have seen.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:56 am

Mian Quan is a totally different art than Yang Mian taijiquan.
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby Finny on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:53 pm

Ron - 'Yang Mian' as taught here in Oz is a Mian Quan system taught by a gent named Yang..

http://www.masteryang.com.au/about-yang-mian/
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Re: Mian Quan

Postby yeniseri on Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:59 pm

Per my limited understanding, mianquan of Yang LuChan's era was a generic cotton fist not a specifically named Mian Quan!
Just liek liuhebafa (6 combination/8 methods) was a way of training as opposed to a form as what we know today as Liu He Ba Fa LiuHe Bafa.

All CMA has Liuhebafa
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