Where WC, Bagua, Taiji etc fail..

[Ba-men]

The standard "run of the mill" boxing fundamentals either checks or makes null and void a lot of the skill sets practiced by these arts.

This Vid shows the common footwork and attacks that boxers do. There simple, easy ( hence effective) they void much of attaching & adhering, they void much of the trapping.. void a lot of striking and kicking all together.

I'm not saying the arts listed can't adapt but... it's a must to a learn what's going on here in this vid.

What you got within your art to check this?

Hopefully it isn't "I'll out box him!" Your in for a world of hurt attempting to out specialize someone who is specialized. Hopefully your prepared to give him something he's never seen before at the same intensity and skill he's gonna bring to the table.

[allen2saint]

I've always thought that boxing and savate footwork would give a big challenge to an attacker or a classical fighter. But I think we're assuming here that the WC, Tai Chi, etc person is seeking to bridge and use the force coming in the classical way. But, if you're just looking to break the person down, such as using breaking hands skills, then you're using a different method that isn't looking to bridge but to break whatever comes, right?

I've noted a lot of footwork data in Docherty's books and also TT Liang's Two Person Set. Not quite the same thing, but I wonder whether or not more complete footwork is either a loast aspect of the arts or something that really does need updating and retrofitting into the art. See Rudy Curry's videos as well. He seems pretty agile and can throw hard.

[neijia_boxer]

The standard "run of the mill" boxing fundamentals either checks or makes null and void a lot of the skill sets practiced by these arts.

This Vid shows the common footwork and attacks that boxers do. There simple, easy ( hence effective) they void much of attaching & adhering, they void much of the trapping.. void a lot of striking and kicking all together.

I'm not saying the arts listed can't adapt but... it's a must to a learn what's going on here in this vid.

What you got within your art to check this?

Hopefully it isn't "I'll out box him!" Your in for a world of hurt attempting to out specialize someone who is specialized. Hopefully your prepared to give him something he's never seen before at the same intensity and skill he's gonna bring to the table.

We have two people that come to our boxing gym:
1. the guy who talks, wants to spar, teacher lets him spar, he wants to go hard on the semi-pro boxer, semi-pro boxer goes hard back. guy never shows up again after taking a beating.
2. the people who stay and do the work even if it is to grind those very similar basics they have to do for at least 2-4 months depending on attendance.

The video was pretty good and coincides with most of what my pro boxing teacher has people who come in never having done boxing. however the guy in the video ask people to do those 5 basic things:
1. Shuffle step with jab, double jab, triple jab.
2. Walking drill forward and back with punches. (very similar to 3 harmonies).
3. Mini shuffle step (adding hook to #1)
4. Quick hop (gaining distance hook)
5. Hopping in range of retreating boxer
across the gym to 3 minutes 1 time each.

In our gym we would have to do each one 3 to 4 times each to a 3 minute round for a total of about 12 to 15 rounds of those 5 basics. Much more work, deep leg training. However our stepping way of doing those are a bit different, but I like where the guy in the video is going with it.

Now for the TOPIC are IMA/CMA failing? well most CMA guys seem to train flat footed anyways so they are already "set" to punch, but def most lack the "compound combos". remember when the guy talks in the video he is saying alot of guys are moving around and not set in their punch with a odd timing in punch and step, that is what i mean CMA guys lack. IMA guys are pretty connected to the ground in my opinion since they do not have agile stepping like a boxer and do the standing gongs and slow mindful training of internal mechanics. Bagua guys have more graceful stepping patterns.

I'm speaking for myself but having had my first Tai Chi instructor also teach western boxing (he felt both were very similar in principles) I def pay extra attention to the "ground path" and this makes for more heavy striking IMO. I train with a pro coach in boxing who is much better than my first Tai Chi + boxing coach, but that is my view.

[Michael Babin]

Back in the late 80s and early 90s. I used to train, whenever I could, with a colleague of mine [same style of Tai Chi through Lee Shiu-pak, for those who have heard of him] who was getting on in years and had taken up Yang style when he was 50. Kenny had been a professional boxer in his youth and still coached kids at his local community centre. Working with him really opened my eyes to what worked best, and what didn't, from the free-style push-hands with light contact that I was used to.

It was fun working with Ken, he was a real gentleman most of the time but I did see him floor one or two push-hands guys over the years at inter-club meets. They'd get needlessly rough with what looked like an aging skinny guy and Kenny's would be back in the ring for a moment and down would go the young guy. He was always apologetic about it and I never saw him hurt anyone [well, too much, anyway]. Some of the push-hands fellows who had it happen learned from the experience but just as often I heard the usual bullshit of "You used too much force for taiji."

Anyway, Kenny was a great guy and he taught me more than I ever thanked him for... I'm doing it now, for what that's worth.

[Spncr]

The standard "run of the mill" boxing fundamentals either checks or makes null and void a lot of the skill sets practiced by these arts.

I feel as though you should do more to substantiate this claim and elaborate on its nuances before a good discussion can continue in a tangible direction. Based on my experiences, I left boxing to train internals because i felt as though the strategies shown in the video contribute to terrible habits (such as bobbing and weaving your head into a punch).

also

What you got within your art to check this? Hopefully it isn't "I'll out box him!"

why isn't this an ok answer? Its what any boxer would do

[GrahamB]

Monkey steals peach. No can defend.

[Wanderingdragon]

It is called Chinese boxing, and IMO, to think it can't out box a western boxer just shows a common and basic ignorance and lack of understanding. If you think your form is your fight, you have not learned the art.

[Ba-men]

Monkey steals peach. No can defend.

LMAO! +1 dude Nice!

[Ba-men]

I'm not saying it i.e. "Quanfa" can't... However I'm not standing on thin ice when I say "if you don't know what I'm talking about then it's apparent you never stuck your head a real (or any for that matter) boxing gym. Or fought anyone with similar skill sets (ala kick boxers or Muay Thai etc)

Nor am I out on a ledge when I say much of these boxing fundamentals simply AND I DO MEAN SIMPLY check or make void much of the specialized skill sets that Taijiquan or Wing Chun or Bagua currently practice. Again if you don't know... then you don't know. I would suggest visiting a boxing gym soon.

If you think I'm talking form and application LOL NOPE! I'm talking about timing, maneuvering/foot work, countering. initiative advantage etc etc.. Boxing fundamentals start that type of training from the get go. Mechanics are mechanics... It's the non engagement dynamics THAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT! PERIOD! if ya don't know that then.... you don't know that you don't know.... should be a warning flag going on if you are reading a statement like this for the first time.

A guy who is more skilled than you in non engagement dynamics will beat you silly with a bitch slap and you won't be able to do shit about it.

[daniel pfister]

It's cool that he throw's a shoulder strike in the second vid. Something we use all the time in PH. Interesting that he also notes that the way we use it probably wouldn't be allowed in boxing matches.

When dealing with a distance fighter I step around and throw strikes more. Not as a way to "out box" them, as that is not my specialty, but as a way to stay in contact with them and to not let them have all the initiative. I don't chase them, as that would be playing into their game, but I neither do I try to bridge and telegraph some technique that would also play to their game. When the opponent chooses to come in close, as in the second vid, I would argue that's much more in the IMA guy's game, assuming we're not limited boxing rules, and the tactics and drills shown would be less effective. But it's all relative of course.

[Wanderingdragon]

"Nor am I out on a ledge when I say much of these boxing fundamentals simply AND I DO MEAN SIMPLY check or make void much of the specialized skill sets that Taijiquan or Wing Chun or Bagua currently practice. Again if you don't know... then you don't know. I would suggest visiting a boxing gym soon."

Won't argue, I will also say, if you know fighting, any one of the arts you mention, being authentic, is as qualified an art as any western boxing gym offers, I have sparred with boxers in a boxing gym. The only speacialty in TCMA is knowing the principles and they are the same principles espoused in boxing , what boxing does not odds is the connection of top and bottom, that said it is not difficult to confuse a boxers feet while forcing them to chase their hands, it is pure misguided fallacy that TCMA is at a loss for footwork.

[daniel pfister]

...while forcing them to chase their hands...

What did you mean by this? Forcing the boxer to chase their own hands? Or yours?

[Ba-men]

"
Won't argue, I will also say, if you know fighting, any one of the arts you mention, being authentic, is as qualified an art as any western boxing gym offers, I have sparred with boxers in a boxing gym. The only speacialty in TCMA is knowing the principles and they are the same principles espoused in boxing , what boxing does not odds is the connection of top and bottom, that said it is not difficult to confuse a boxers feet while forcing them to chase their hands, it is pure misguided fallacy that TCMA is at a loss for footwork.

And you get NO argument from he here. I agree! I also like you analogy of Boxing not being connected top and bottom. Quanfa developed to the intensity and as dynamic as Boxing... It's just rare that's all. In fact the original post i.e. My statement "What you got within your art to check this?" I was hoping some people would come forth with examples. I'm not pro boxing I should clarify this. Kinda sounded like I was... but I'm not. I'm pro their intensity and dynamics.

[Wanderingdragon]

...while forcing them to chase their hands...

What did you mean by this? Forcing the boxer to chase their own hands? Or yours?

When you throw punches, they launch from your feet but once in flight, the feet are gone, that's why the shuffle, to catch up.
Using the clips posted, just think, slipping/stepping to the outside of jab1, due to the forward momentum of his "throwing" the punch you're already on top of his center before he can even rechamber. Likewise step to the out side of the cross and he has to step over his back leg to chase you. I'm just using the simplicities of the basics shown, this is simple Bagua stepping. He will surely try to turn the jab into a jab hook but if you're well versed his chin is already yours.
The work he's doing on the bag is a training feed for Xing I zuan / pi.

[Andy_S]

I haven't boxed for about two decades and have not sparred a boxer since the mid-1990s. But to answer the question of how to deal with them:
(1) Close range with low kicks while covering up upstairs;
(2) Get to the clinch
(3) Doing your thing (knee, sweep, throw, lock, etc) from there

But I am a welterweight. One of the scariest fighters for me to face in any kind of combative situation would be a heavyweight boxer. And I would add that if he is a halfway decent boxer, you won't be able to outrun him, either: These lads are fit and do the roadwork.

I would add that both historically and contemporarily, boxing has taught a MASSIVE amount to Asian martial arts - including CMA. (In terms of equipment; training drills; conditioning drills; and even techniques. Look at both the curriculum of the old Kuoshu Academy, which fully adopted boxing gloves, boxing drills and boxing's emphasis on sparring. Or more recently, look at sanda, which developed out of the Olympic boxing program at Beijing Sports University. ) The same cannot be said in reverse.