Where WC, Bagua, Taiji etc fail..

[wayne hansen]

What do you guys think of his body mechanics
Especially the back flat foot turned out at 90
Is he a recognised boxer

[hodmeist]

I spend three days a week at a boxing gym as my son is a keen amateur junior boxer. The fighters at the gym vary in standard from junior ABA potential to ex-pro to white collar guys looking for a fix. I have travelled to different boxing gyms with my son and his coach so he can gain some additional sparring from other junior's elsewhere and with more experience. I spend hours watching live sparring and I analyse continually how Taiji and Bagua would deal with the attacks. I have come to the conclusion that boxing is an incredible fighting art and breeds far more fighters than any martial art I can think of but it has its limitations. Summed up by a challenge some months ago between the Muay Thai club next door who asked for some sparring with our boys. Rules were hands only resulting in one Muay Thai guy receiving a broken nose and cracked ribs and the other waving the sparring session off in the second round. However, had the Muay Thai guys been able to use their legs and elbows etc, the result could and probably would have been a lot different. In summary, I would never box a boxer.

[dspyrido]

At range boxers loose to kicks. Especially when the boxer is an orthodox "pls kick my nuts or shins range" stylist.
Once inside then boxing will outstrike most arts - until you grab their arms or realise you can just cover and use other body parts. So shell, charge and grab.
Once in close quarters (ie elbow or less range) the money is now on anyone who can combine "7 stars" hitting with grappling. Most boxers have only the hook and uppercut here - dirty boxing otoh is far more relevant here.
And then there is the ground.

So wc, tc and anyone who stays in sticking range but refuses to grab and lock up the opponent - yes it's hard work outpunching or trying to adhere to a boxer.

Best part of boxing though - fitness, no bullshit and direct learning path. A great place to start in combat arts.

[Steve James]

Even boxers have problems with "boxers." It may be useful to think in terms of how a tcc guy would cope with a boxer, but it won't help. The best ways to cope have been developed by people who've faced boxers. But, I think it's boxing's training regimen that makes the boxer formidable.

Afa kicks, btw, the assumption is that boxers don't kick is based on the sport. Using striking for self defense is another matter. Boxers don't train to kick in the ring, but that doesn't mean that they can't kick you in the nuts. Afa self-defense, one could consider "dirty" boxing an art in itself. Though it's really the art of doing illegal tactics without the ref seeing In close, a boxer can use forearms and elbows (as in "missed" uppercuts, etc). That alleged street/prison style, "52 elbows" or "jailhouse rock," is based on boxing. Of course, in the penitentiary, "style" is irrelevant when the 320lb rapist and his crew come into the cell. Or, so I've been told.

[neijia_boxer]

I spend three days a week at a boxing gym as my son is a keen amateur junior boxer. The fighters at the gym vary in standard from junior ABA potential to ex-pro to white collar guys looking for a fix. I have travelled to different boxing gyms with my son and his coach so he can gain some additional sparring from other junior's elsewhere and with more experience. I spend hours watching live sparring and I analyse continually how Taiji and Bagua would deal with the attacks. I have come to the conclusion that boxing is an incredible fighting art and breeds far more fighters than any martial art I can think of but it has its limitations. Summed up by a challenge some months ago between the Muay Thai club next door who asked for some sparring with our boys. Rules were hands only resulting in one Muay Thai guy receiving a broken nose and cracked ribs and the other waving the sparring session off in the second round. However, had the Muay Thai guys been able to use their legs and elbows etc, the result could and probably would have been a lot different. In summary, I would never box a boxer.

Nice, this is one of the better posts here Hodmeist.

The over speculation on how some IMA people think they can best a well trained boxer with ease is just "talking out of the ass" aka "bullshit" to me. Boxers are very well rooted and "sit into the punch" just as deep as IMA folks.

[kenneth fish]

I will go further. Most Martial Artists of all stripes (Karate, CMA, BJJ) who have never faced a boxer will get a quick, painful lesson in the inadequacies of their training. It doesn't matter if you have spent time "sparring'" other martial artists - an AAU level or semi-pro boxer trains in a way that most martial artists do not - they take a limited number of tools, train them until they are second nature, and then test them against a non-compliant partner. In addition, they train to be in top physical shape.

Boxing is most certainly a martial art - just try to screw around with a well trained Marine who has gone through the full gamut of combat training. The core is boxing.

[wayne hansen]

Point 6 the elbows differs greatly
Tai chi out boxing in
This is due to the fact that in tai chi if the elbow is attacked it needs a circle to negate
This is not a part of boxing

[kenneth fish]

I assume that you have never trained to box. Making small circles with the elbow, driven by the shoulder and torso, is a basic defensive technique.

[Bhassler]

Boxing is most certainly a martial art - just try to screw around with a well trained Marine who has gone through the full gamut of combat training. The core is boxing.

If you ever get a chance to play with someone who's studied and trained in the old time pugilism (which is to say boxing, except without all the annoying rules for safety), it's a real treat, and without doubt a well developed and robust martial art by any practical measure.

[shawnsegler]

[wayne hansen]

Well ken you shouldn't make assumptions
I was talking about the default position
In boxing they can be kept in until need
In the internal arts they should never assume that position

[Sean]

Amazing guy. Thanks for that vid, Shawn.

[kenneth fish]

In the internal arts they should never assume that position

Which internal arts are you referring to? In Hebei XIngyi and XYLH one keeps the elbows down and close to the body - much as in boxing. Still, that is getting away from the point of the OP.

[888]

I think if you want to stand a chance against a decent boxer you have to first spend some time getting good at boxing with a good coach. After that you might be able to see where your internal training can help you out.

I certainly feel that the attributes I get from bagua training help immensely (speed, sensitivity, relaxedness, rooting, mobile rooting, non-teleghraphic punches, conservation of energy during clinches, awareness, sharpness, seeing openings and reacting to them etc). All these qualities give an advantage over sparring partners who don't train like we do. But you got to learn the art of boxing as well.

JKD helped me with distance control, interception, timing, angles, lines of power, footwork etc

[hodmeist]

[quote][I will go further. Most Martial Artists of all stripes (Karate, CMA, BJJ) who have never faced a boxer will get a quick, painful lesson in the inadequacies of their training. It doesn't matter if you have spent time "sparring'" other martial artists - an AAU level or semi-pro boxer trains in a way that most martial artists do not - they take a limited number of tools, train them until they are second nature, and then test them against a non-compliant partner. In addition, they train to be in top physical shape.
/quote]
Agree with everything in the above post and also with what neiji_boxer listed. For some reason, some Martial artists look down on boxing and boxers as being limited and hide behind the assumption or belief that walking up and down the hall twice a week punching into thin air somehow equips them to deal with a someone who spends most of their time fighting a non compliant partner and drilling continuous full power strikes on bags and pads etc. Two weeks ago, in preparation for a fight he had last weekend, my son his coach and a few other boxers from his club were invited to train at a gym owned by a professional British heavyweight boxer. The heavyweight was British title standard a few years ago but recently got stopped by the UK's latest hope Anthony Joshua. After the session, my son could not walk properly for a few days as he had joined in with a professional fighters workout. He also said that the heavyweight, Matt Skelton, hit the bag harder than anyone he had ever seen in his life. Like I say, I would never box a boxer and would never underestimate one. When I have toyed around with some of the guys from the boxing gym I've usually shown them some evasion and some low kicks with palm strikes to the neck area. Obviously not boxing and I'm not foolish enough to brag that by showing them a technique in a controlled situation it will work in an intense situation every time. If I was to meet a trainer boxer in the street, unless I struck the decisive blow inside the first twenty to thirty seconds I would be puffing like a steam train and eventually become a sitting duck. A boxers cardio fitness is a massive attribute to any fighter.