Lars Anderson; Re-Discovery of archery

[wushutiger]

Enough to go through chainmail it seems. And please feel free to post your own archery skills video

Well, chain mail wasnt designed to stop arrows. There was other armor for that.

That being said, while he has skill, and I am not debating this at all, I am wondering how he would do with a higher draw weight and traditional arrows. Draw weights are VERY well recorded in Qing dynasty archives for soldiers, which was used on horseback and foot and they are relatively high. The reasons are plenty, including the weight of the arrow being shot which converts into penetrating power.

For reference:
http://www.manchuarchery.org/historical ... -qing-bows

One can see clearly the high draw weights actually used for warfare. I started on light draw, and currently use a 62 pound bow, which is still lower than what was used by soldiers.

Talking about quivers, speaking from chinese quivers and manchu quivers which I use, they all had stuffing in them which holds the arrows in tightly, even when upside down. Albeit hip quivers were used.

The issue of hunting, especially if you are referring to bison as in the pictures is even more important regarding draw weights. A light draw bow will not work on such an animal, or most game for that matter, as the hunter needs to damage internal organs, preferably the heart, in order to kill the animal. Getting through the flesh alone on a bison would be difficult enough, never mind the ribs and chest bones. This is why draw weight is indeed important. With a light weight bow, all that would happen is the arrow would penetrate a bit of flesh and the animal will run away with your arrows.

Lars really is skilled, no one is debating that, he shoots fast, knocks fast, and is accurate, but his talk about the military ways of the past isnt exactly accurate, nor would he be able to replicate those results with a heavy poundage war bow and wooden arrows that were used in the past....maybe through practice he would though, as I said, he has the skills needed to do so.

[Steve James]

Afa learning, 30-40 lbs is fine, and many would consider that more than enough. Afa the penetration of Apache arrows, they didn't kill the bison with single arrows. Like picadors, they peppered the animal with arrows to weaken it. Then, the coup de grace would be given with a lance. Even then, I don't think it would have been easy. It's a really interesting question as to the actual draw weight of most Apache bows. I've seen them in museums. None (I've seen) are as sophisticated as the Mongol bows.

[willywrong]

Enough to go through chainmail it seems. And please feel free to post your own archery skills video

Well, chain mail wasnt designed to stop arrows. There was other armor for that.

That being said, while he has skill, and I am not debating this at all, I am wondering how he would do with a higher draw weight and traditional arrows. Draw weights are VERY well recorded in Qing dynasty archives for soldiers, which was used on horseback and foot and they are relatively high. The reasons are plenty, including the weight of the arrow being shot which converts into penetrating power.

For reference:
http://www.manchuarchery.org/historical ... -qing-bows

One can see clearly the high draw weights actually used for warfare. I started on light draw, and currently use a 62 pound bow, which is still lower than what was used by soldiers.

Talking about quivers, speaking from chinese quivers and manchu quivers which I use, they all had stuffing in them which holds the arrows in tightly, even when upside down. Albeit hip quivers were used.

The issue of hunting, especially if you are referring to bison as in the pictures is even more important regarding draw weights. A light draw bow will not work on such an animal, or most game for that matter, as the hunter needs to damage internal organs, preferably the heart, in order to kill the animal. Getting through the flesh alone on a bison would be difficult enough, never mind the ribs and chest bones. This is why draw weight is indeed important. With a light weight bow, all that would happen is the arrow would penetrate a bit of flesh and the animal will run away with your arrows.

Lars really is skilled, no one is debating that, he shoots fast, knocks fast, and is accurate, but his talk about the military ways of the past isnt exactly accurate, nor would he be able to replicate those results with a heavy poundage war bow and wooden arrows that were used in the past....maybe through practice he would though, as I said, he has the skills needed to do so.

1+

[Spncr]

The issue of hunting, especially if you are referring to bison as in the pictures is even more important regarding draw weights. A light draw bow will not work on such an animal, or most game for that matter, as the hunter needs to damage internal organs, preferably the heart, in order to kill the animal. Getting through the flesh alone on a bison would be difficult enough, never mind the ribs and chest bones. This is why draw weight is indeed important. With a light weight bow, all that would happen is the arrow would penetrate a bit of flesh and the animal will run away with your arrows.

That being said, i recall that Saxton Pope remarked in his book (Hunting with the Bow and Arrow), that both him and Arthur Young were of the opinion that there is not a beast on earth that cannot be killed with a broad-head arrow from a 30lb bow... Just some food for thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxton_Pope
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8084/pg8084.html

[willywrong]

[quote="Spncr

That being said, i recall that Saxton Pope remarked in his book (Hunting with the Bow and Arrow), that both him and Arthur Young were of the opinion that there is not a beast on earth that cannot be killed with a broad-head arrow from a 30lb bow... Just some food for thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxton_Pope
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8084/pg8084.html[/quote]

Arrows killed by haemorrhage so the weight of the bow is really irrelevant except for depth of incision. Placement of the incision, how fast you can run away from the alpha predator and just how lucky you feel.

[Steve James]

there is not a beast on earth that cannot be killed with a broad-head arrow from a 30lb bow.

That's almost definitely true. There is a debate whether it is ever humane (because the animal may run for miles before it dies), and many will have to be finished with a rifle.

Anyway, when it comes to Apaches, they had stone-age arrows, not modern broadheads. A flint arrowhead can be razor sharp, but it won't be comparable in terms of penetration. http://www.lancasterarchery.com/arrows/ ... oints.html

[Steve James]

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8084/pg8084.html

Thanks for the link. Here's an interesting section.

Drawn to the full length of an arrow, which was about twenty-six inches, exclusive of the foreshaft, his bow bent in a perfect arc slightly flattened at the handle. Its pull was about forty-five pounds, and it could shoot an arrow about two hundred yards.

This is not the most powerful type of weapon known to Indians, and even Ishi did make stronger bows when he pleased; but this seemed to be the ideal weight for hunting, and it certainly was adequate in his hands.

According to English standards, it was very short; but for hunting in the brush and shooting from crouched postures, it seems better fitted for the work than a longer weapon.

According to Ishi, a bow left strung or standing in an upright position, gets tired and sweats. When not in use it should be lying down; no one should step over it; no child should handle it, and no woman should touch it. This brings bad luck and makes it shoot crooked. To expunge such an influence it is necessary to wash the bow in sand and water.

In his judgment, a good bow made a musical note when strung and the string is tapped with the arrow. This was man's first harp, the great grandfather of the pianoforte.

By placing one end of his bow at the corner of his open mouth and tapping the string with an arrow, the Yana could make sweet music. It sounded like an Aeolian harp. To this accompaniment Ishi sang a folk-song telling of a great warrior whose bow was so strong that, dipping his arrow first in fire, then in the ocean, he shot at the sun. As swift as the wind, his arrow flew straight in the round open door of the sun and put out its light. Darkness fell upon the earth and men shivered with cold. To prevent themselves from freezing they grew feathers, and thus our brothers, the birds, were born.

[Peacedog]

Most composite war bows were between 90-120 pounds draw and long bows were 100-150 pounds draw and up. Long bows of greater than 225 pounds are not uncommon, although it is unclear if this something an individual would use versus standard military equipment. Interestingly, bows from pre-history have been found that are thought to have draws in the range of 200-300 pounds. A quick google search can give you multiple sources on that.

Keep in mind composite bows are largely useless in very wet environments. The glues holding them together delaminate in higher moisture content areas over time. The Mongols had to use heater boxes that were prepped in advance and even then the effective range suffered the further West they went.

Composite bows were designed to fire a lighter arrow long distances and be more accurate individually (i.e. the Steppe against lightly armored targets). Long bows are designed to fire a heavy arrow a shorter distance against heavily armored targets largely in volley fire.

As a young man I could just barely bend a 70-75 pound bow reliably at a bodyweight of 140 pounds. I still have a very lopsided back musculature due to extensive one sided archery practice from 25 years ago.

While I respect the skill of Anderson, based off of his apparent build he would need to be a good deal heavier to use a proper war bow. Additionally, with those heavy draws from traditional war bows I don't know if the kind of speed he is demonstrating is even possible.

[Spncr]

Your welcome for the link, its a good read.

There is a debate whether it is ever humane (because the animal may run for miles before it dies), and many will have to be finished with a rifle.

Pope gives his opinion on this too, he thinks broad-heads are more humane.

[GrahamB]

Snopes.com has done an investigation into the original video, since it seems to he upsetting the Internet.

http://www.snopes.com/info/news/larsandersen.asp

[windwalker]

Snopes.com has done an investigation into the original video, since it seems to he upsetting the Internet.

http://www.snopes.com/info/news/larsandersen.asp

I have currently tried 14 times (everything is filmed). For me this is the ultimate archery, which I until recently had thought was impossible.

it can be done, but requires the handling of the bow and arrow to become completely bodily. You may not have time to aim or think, and you must first be completely convinced you hit, you see, "feel" the incoming arrow and shoot in an instant. Do not attempt this.

I/we have been in doubt about wether this should be shown, because we were afraid that someone gets hurt if they try to emulate it.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/info/news/larsand ... Wq2if96.99

good link, some very insightful insights.

[wushutiger]

http://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/

[windwalker]

http://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/

Reading the comments its interesting the view points.
One posters comments:

Sure, and the narration in Lars’ video is pretty hyperbolic overstatement when it comes to history or implies modern archery is “wrong.” (Though, come on, he is an enthusiastic LARP nerd who’s using a non-native language and has given additional context to his shooting in easily accessible formats online, if we want to get on people not doing their homework)

But to me a modern competitive archery coach complaining that it’s gotta be fake or that he has terrible form seems like a competitive sniper/rifleman complaining that nobody could do what a trick-shot gunslinger does or that a handgun specialist doing a combat simulation course has awful rifle form.

Just seems like an angry bad-faith rant (especially the jab about people in history not having ways to measure short intervals of time, which is demonstrably false; try breaths, heartbeats, time for an arrow shot a particular distance to hit the ground, etc.).

[Steve James]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDbqz_07dW4

[Spncr]