Chiba - rough Aikido

[Rabbit]

If you are in or have been in the UK Aikido scene you will know this name

Some love him as someone tough and real - others hate him for wounding his students and tainting Aikidos reputation with brutal demo's

[yeniseri]

Great view!

There are many who view 'soft' as not valuable or somehow it is useless! Showing the brutal reality of aikido when confronted by savages and thugs (the real adversaries) is a way to orient us to see the true worth of responses when dealing with animal or other dregs. Remember that animals and thugs are defined by their behaviours and actions!

[Interloper]

That's "old Chiba." He had a reputation for being brutal and excessively forceful in his use of ukes/students.
In recent years, according to reports, he has apologized for this and stated that he was wrong.

He was one of a cadre of young men that Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba took on as uchi-deshi (disciples) for a whirlwind training program designed to get them ranked as "master"-level teachers and then sent out around the world, as missionaries, to open schools and start spreading Aikido. They trained for a relatively short period of time (I think 4 years) and were given 4th-dan black belts. The curriculum they received was completely "external" and technique-based. The internal skills ("aiki") that Ueshiba possessed were not part of the curriculum, as Kisshomaru (Ueshiba's son and inheritor of mainline Aikido) evidently, in part, felt it would be too complicated to include in both the new teachers' and their future students' training, and would severely limit the extent to which Aikido could be mass-produced worldwide.

Chiba has, in recent years, gone outside Aikido to learn the internal skills that his original training lacked. Now that he finally understands what "soft" truly means, it seems he has recognized his erroneous approach to trying to imitate what he though M. Ueshiba was doing with great (internal) power. Chiba had failed at this because he had only an external shell of what Ueshiba had, so perhaps to compensate for his own lack of power, Chiba added brute force. Now, he doesn't have to.

[windwalker]

Chiba has, in recent years, gone outside Aikido to learn the internal skills that his original training lacked. Now that he finally understands what "soft" truly means, it seems he has recognized his erroneous approach to trying to imitate what he though M. Ueshiba was doing with great (internal) power. Chiba had failed at this because he had only an external shell of what Ueshiba had, so perhaps to compensate for his own lack of power, Chiba added brute force. Now, he doesn't have to.

nice thread

can you expand more on what you feel or any others on what "chiba" had come to understand?
In Hawaii, many yrs back I had good friend who used to teach and train at 2 of the akido, schools out there, One was by " Koichi Tohei" the other group I forgot the name
apparently they followed different ideas about the art.

[liokault]

Great view!

There are many who view 'soft' as not valuable or somehow it is useless! Showing the brutal reality of aikido when confronted by savages and thugs (the real adversaries) is a way to orient us to see the true worth of responses when dealing with animal or other dregs. Remember that animals and thugs are defined by their behaviours and actions!

What happens when they meet the brutal reality of a guy who doesn't do a reverse punch to the gut then stand still with his arm outstretched?

I still think the best ( at least most entertaining ) MA book ever written is "Angry white pyjamas". The part about the "masters" from all over the world coming to Japan for their teachers funeral, then getting drunk and fighting bouncers by wading in with haymakers and no fine locks was classic.

[Zonker]

Chiba sensei is retired these days. I didn't realize that he came to place in his life where he stated he was wrong for breaking uke during demonstrations. He has great skill, don't let the standing uke getting smashed fool you. Chiba sensei was exceptionally skilled in jiujitsu before starting aikido.

[emptycloud]

Rough martial practice of any style is generally a young persons game. You heal quickly, your bendy, your stupid. You get older, you heal slowly, you don't bend so easily, you get smarter.

Chiba had to change as he aged, else he would of got his ass handed to him by a younger, faster, stronger, and not so devotional uke..

His style as Interloper says was part of a time and place, these days you wouldn't last five minutes with that kind school.

Depends what your purpose for practice is. Find your purpose for practice and try to match that with a teacher.

If you want your arms broken then Chiba's your man, or was your man.

Rich

[Interloper]

I can't really speak further of Chiba, as I'm only reporting back what I was told by some people who used to train with him. I don't know how much exposure to internal methods he has had, but apparently he has at least felt it enough to know that brute force was the wrong way to go about it, and not how his teacher was generating power.

As for what it is that anyone might understand about true softness, is that the real power is generated by whole-body, coordinated movement, not "hard" force from sequenced chains of movements that use only discrete parts of the body. When you don't have to contract and flex the muscles of the upper torso and arms in order to generate punching and pulling force, you can relax those "outer" muscle groups and thus feel "soft" and relaxed both to yourself and to anyone observing those muscles. Yet, when you punch or strike, it is powerful and "hard." And when you step and turn, it uses minimal energy and you do not sacrifice any of your center of mass or balance. Yet anyone grabbing hold of you will be swept off their feet and taken for a ride, even while you move effortlessly. That's the million-dollar movement that aikido students watched Ueshiba make, but could not replicate, because their eyes were seeing only the external by-products of internal movements, and thinking that the shell they were seeing was -all- there was to it. They mimicked those outer movements without having the inner actions that created those visible movements.

Chiba has, in recent years, gone outside Aikido to learn the internal skills that his original training lacked. Now that he finally understands what "soft" truly means, it seems he has recognized his erroneous approach to trying to imitate what he though M. Ueshiba was doing with great (internal) power. Chiba had failed at this because he had only an external shell of what Ueshiba had, so perhaps to compensate for his own lack of power, Chiba added brute force. Now, he doesn't have to.

nice thread

can you expand more on what you feel or any others on what "chiba" had come to understand?
In Hawaii, many yrs back I had good friend who used to teach and train at 2 of the akido, schools out there, One was by " Koichi Tohei" the other group I forgot the name
apparently they followed different ideas about the art.

[windwalker]

I can't really speak further of Chiba, as I'm only reporting back what I was told by some people who used to train with him. I don't know how much exposure to internal methods he has had, but apparently he has at least felt it enough to know that brute force was the wrong way to go about it, and not how his teacher was generating power.

As for what it is that anyone might understand about true softness, is that the real power is generated by whole-body, coordinated movement, not "hard" force from sequenced chains of movements that use only discrete parts of the body. When you don't have to contract and flex the muscles of the upper torso and arms in order to generate punching and pulling force, you can relax those "outer" muscle groups and thus feel "soft" and relaxed both to yourself and to anyone observing those muscles. Yet, when you punch or strike, it is powerful and "hard." And when you step and turn, it uses minimal energy and you do not sacrifice any of your center of mass or balance. Yet anyone grabbing hold of you will be swept off their feet and taken for a ride, even while you move effortlessly. That's the million-dollar movement that aikido students watched Ueshiba make, but could not replicate, because their eyes were seeing only the external by-products of internal movements, and thinking that the shell they were seeing was -all- there was to it. They mimicked those outer movements without having the inner actions that created those visible movements.

Chiba has, in recent years, gone outside Aikido to learn the internal skills that his original training lacked. Now that he finally understands what "soft" truly means, it seems he has recognized his erroneous approach to trying to imitate what he though M. Ueshiba was doing with great (internal) power. Chiba had failed at this because he had only an external shell of what Ueshiba had, so perhaps to compensate for his own lack of power, Chiba added brute force. Now, he doesn't have to.

nice thread

can you expand more on what you feel or any others on what "chiba" had come to understand?
In Hawaii, many yrs back I had good friend who used to teach and train at 2 of the akido, schools out there, One was by " Koichi Tohei" the other group I forgot the name
apparently they followed different ideas about the art.

thanks good write up.

In other words he could still do the same things but found he didnt have to do them to prove his power, he and others could feel it.

Rough martial practice of any style is generally a young persons game. You heal quickly, your bendy, your stupid. You get older, you heal slowly, you don't bend so easily, you get smarter.

Chiba had to change as he aged, else he would of got his ass handed to him by a younger, faster, stronger, and not so devotional uke..

His style as Interloper says was part of a time and place, these days you wouldn't last five minutes with that kind school.

I would really have to disagree with this line of thought. Not an aikidoest, the same sentiments are often said of "taiji" it takes awhile to build the right body, and train the mind to understand how to use it. The same understandings have been reached by others in CMA often allowing them to really see the differences between the 2 practices.
Just as with "IP" many seek it, only few ever really IME develop it, even in arts that are supposed to promote and use it.

their eyes were seeing only the external by-products of internal movements, and thinking that the shell they were seeing was -all- there was to it. They mimicked those outer movements without having the inner actions that created those visible movements.

+1

[yeniseri]

If I recall correctly, Ueshiba did all the heavy work in his youth (conditioning/hard training, etc) but as he progressed, he realized that using physical strength only lasts until one is at that certain age. After that, strength goes downhill (sarcopenia). Chiba realized this at his level of "filled cup" and saw the maturation of his understanding.

[dspyrido]

As for what it is that anyone might understand about true softness, is that the real power is generated by whole-body, coordinated movement, not "hard" force from sequenced chains of movements that use only discrete parts of the body. When you don't have to contract and flex the muscles of the upper torso and arms in order to generate punching and pulling force, you can relax those "outer" muscle groups and thus feel "soft" and relaxed both to yourself and to anyone observing those muscles. Yet, when you punch or strike, it is powerful and "hard." And when you step and turn, it uses minimal energy and you do not sacrifice any of your center of mass or balance. Yet anyone grabbing hold of you will be swept off their feet and taken for a ride, even while you move effortlessly. That's the million-dollar movement that aikido students watched Ueshiba make, but could not replicate, because their eyes were seeing only the external by-products of internal movements, and thinking that the shell they were seeing was -all- there was to it. They mimicked those outer movements without having the inner actions that created those visible movements.

I really like this description. Sheds some light on what the aikido camp are aiming for.

Still I always have to wonder why Ueshiba could do it with little other examples of people doing it other than under uki/student scenarios. It all feels like Ma Yeung Liang style of respect is going on: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22799&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=liang

[Interloper]

If I recall correctly, Ueshiba did all the heavy work in his youth (conditioning/hard training, etc) but as he progressed, he realized that using physical strength only lasts until one is at that certain age. After that, strength goes downhill (sarcopenia). Chiba realized this at his level of "filled cup" and saw the maturation of his understanding.

The game-changer for Ueshiba was when he met Sokaku Takeda (founder, Daito-ryu ... the internal Japanese MA). Takeda taught him internal body method ('"aiki") along with DR jujutsu. Learning aiki from Takeda was THE thing that taught him the difference between using brute muscle strength and leverage, and using internal power to be soft. The old story, if I recall it correctly, is that Ueshiba, buff and strong after all those years of hard physical work, had first met Takeda and was effortlessly thrown across the room by that tiny (5' tall and 100 lbs, even smaller than Ueshiba), fierce man, and that the "truth" of that moment had caused Ueshiba to break down and cry. He desperately wanted that kind of relaxed power.

Ueshiba went on to teach and award scrolls in Daito-ryu for some years, but eventually adapted DR to fit his own personal spiritual agenda. Aikido was his adaptation of DR.

[Interloper]

I really like this description. Sheds some light on what the aikido camp are aiming for.

Still I always have to wonder why Ueshiba could do it with little other examples of people doing it other than under uki/student scenarios. It all feels like Ma Yeung Liang style of respect is going on: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22799&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=liang

I think that in Ueshiba's case, he was using Aikido as a vehicle for his spirituality. So, the older and more into himself he got, the less it mattered to him whether anyone was learning anything martial from Aikido. He was all about being an avatar of the kami, standing as a conduit between Heaven and Earth, with all that power of In and Yo/Yin and Yang passing through him.

Also, his power scared his students. Probably a lot of them threw themselves in advance of his even touching them so they wouldn't get a dislocated shoulder or whatever. lol. On top of that, there probably was more than a little "goo-goo-eyes" kind of awe that led to some self-hypnosis. It's really too bad, because that kind of uke worship and tanking distracts and detracts from what a highly skilled teacher was demonstrating.

[windwalker]

Probably a lot of them threw themselves in advance of his even touching them so they wouldn't get a dislocated shoulder or whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk

can you say where this happening.
A good thread, really have to disagree with statements like these.
It might true for a limited number of students / people ect but not really true for the majority.
Many of which where skilled MA in there own right before meeting such teachers.

If it was true, what they do/did, and how would be readily understandable.

On other threads I've been accused of saying something like " if one has not felt it, then they have not met anyone who could do it yet"

Just as the base assumption was wrong in the reasons behind why some would find this "way" until much later in life, so too IMO is the idea that the students are being differential to teachers with such skill. The teachers themselves want the students to be able to feel it directly.

Dont really want to interject anymore in what is interesting with some good history and insights from the OP.

[Interloper]

Well, I can speak from my own experience, as I have trained in Daito-ryu - both the aiki and the jujutsu. The whole reason for learning those self-throws and breakfalls is precisely so that joints don't get ripped out and to spread out/dissipate the force of being slammed onto the ground. It is an excruciatingly painful and damaging jujutsu system with very tight, wrapping locks and pins, and in fact many of them don't allow uke to roll or throw himself out of them. Aikido is a gentler form of that, one that allows uke to throw himself to reduce and/or escape the stress on joints.

Some students become good at taking ukemi, and learn the proper timing that will allow nage to make kuzushi, but then the ukes can throw themselves to dissipate the force, and to soften the force of ground impact. Other students are not so good at the timing, and throw themselves just before contact, anticipating the kuzushi and wishing to avoid it. Still others are into some weird head thing and swoon if the Master shoots eye daggers at them.

Probably a lot of them threw themselves in advance of his even touching them so they wouldn't get a dislocated shoulder or whatever.

A good thread, really have to disagree with statements like these.
It might true for a limited number of students / people ect but not really true for the majority.
Many of which where skilled MA in there own right before meeting such teachers.

If it was true what they do/did, and how would be readily understandable.

On other threads I've been accused of saying something like " if one has not felt it, then they have not met anyone who could do it yet"

Just as the base assumption was wrong in the reasons behind why some would find this "way" until much later in life, so to IMO is the idea that the students are being differential to teachers with such skill.

Dont really want to interject anymore in what is interesting with some good history and insights from the OP.