Chiba - rough Aikido

[D_Glenn]

"Up from the ground, controlled by the waist and out the hands." is a mistranslation AFAIK.
It's not talking about anything "coming up" from the ground, etc.

It says, "jin is rooted in feet, developed in legs, controlled by yao and expressed through hands/fingers"
'yao' is the "small of the back" (again, AFAIK), including pelvic area, upper part of the hips and lower part of the waist.

FWIW

In the end, it's just another "phrase from the classics" -- meaningless without a way to "implement" it in real practice.

It's a catch phrase that has been taken completely out of context.

“其根在脚，发于腿，主宰于腰，形于手指” is about using Lian and Sui (Link and Follow).

It's how one 'Sheji Cong Ren' (Give up (to link) and yield to the opponent's attacks (to Follow)).

After one Sui (Follows) then they could counter-attack using the power of the Dantian and Spine.

Wu Yuxiang's best student, his nephew Li Liyu wrote some better stuff on the topic of 'Sheji Cong Ren'.


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[Bodywork]

Well...doesn't it feel great to be part of this exciting dialogue where so much important information is shared between respected colleagues?

Just who, are colleagues of, whom? I just got back from a table full of Japanese practitioners and teachers at a seminar taking about that guy. Let's just say some of us go back a ways with interesting connections. Are we now his colleagues? We don't think so.
I know of another veeery well known art that some here love. The entire thing is a fraud, completely made up out of whole cloth. Are they my colleagues, too? Am I a hypocrite to say it publicly?
The internet may make it seem like people are all equal... but it only seems that way.

[GrahamB]

Oh go on, wing chun? Bagua?

[allen2saint]

I was just making a joke about the way the conversation was going. From the reactions, I'd say a much needed one.

[Bodywork]

I was just making a joke about the way the conversation was going. From the reactions, I'd say a much needed one.

Ooooops!! Ian wrote me too. Internet communications are rather dry aren't they. Or was it just me being stupid? Face to face and hanging out is so much easier.

[emptycloud]

Oh go on, wing chun? Bagua?

obviously systema...

[Aqui]

Hey Dan, could you post a link to a video of somebody who got "it" and shows such skills?

I would love to see such skills!

Thanks,

Aqui

[slowEdie]

bodywork has said

3. Relax as a value? That is such a waste of time the word should never be uttered in martial arts ever again.

Although I agree with a lot of your insights, this statement I believe to be contentious nonsense and quite contradictory of previous statements. Is this an evolution or devolution, or merely stirring the pot??
Relaxation is a defining attribute of "internal".

Here are some of your previous statements on relaxation.....

I am a fan of what it does to someones mental state to relax under serious pressure (not not seen on video) and what it can do for a soldier in a combat theater. They have a winning forumula for "when the shit hits the fan do" moving in a pressured environment.

4. Also worthy of considerations is that in the old days, no one was going to go into battle having to "deliver" with measurable tension over and over. You’d blow your wad in the first hour of battle. There were no second chances to get it right. Your body needed to be so well trained that you fought with low percentages of power, more akin to natural movement. For the young men caught up with science of training out there, a way to think of it in modern terms is that no one would think of grappling without cardio training or they would get gassed- right? I can't tell you how many Aikido, BJJ, Judo and others we have played with who exhausted themselves trying to throw us. Their cardio? Didn't mean shit in the long run, they were "working" like steam engines trying to submit this old man. How does this happen? By using only low percentages of our power expressed through solo training to connect the body in a relaxed manner.....

Then you have Rickson, who trains Yoga and discusses relaxation and breathpower and structure while grappling-sound familiar? His record is something like 368-0-1

Internal training with intent specifically avoids single direction motions, the muscles are trained to react antagonistic in a relaxed "potential" state fully engaging facial/tendon and bone to move as a whole.

Yes I have since I was a kid and I also used to teach out of a judo dojo that also had seminars with teachers coming in from all over. Which afforded me an opportunity to play with various people. I happen to love Judo. If you want to make a claim now that Judo on the whole as an art is internal like a bunch of other guys keep trying to do- go for it.
At best I have felt some good listening skills and the better guys are more relaxed players relying much more on timing and footwork for entries than muscle.

But to be fair I think this statement is a lot closer to the truth

Its more than relaxing, its more than structure. There are any number of good grapplers who can relax in a positional change or hold. Which has nothin at all to do with structure or internal power. And there are, and number of good judoka who can exhibit good structure and then throw you with good technique that feels really ghosty-that has nothing to do with internal power. I suspect everyone talking in generalities about relaxing and tensing, and when to relax VS tensing or that movement is as simple as structure- has missed it.
If you cannot articulate how your body movement is so different than normal, externally trained fighters than you might want to considier that you are in fact not doing an internal art at all (even if you're in one) and you are, after all is said and done-just another external MA.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Bao]

"There are any number of good grapplers who can relax in a positional change or hold. Which has nothin at all to do with structure or internal power. And there are, and number of good judoka who can exhibit good structure and then throw you with good technique that feels really ghosty-that has nothing to do with internal power."

Interesting... I didn't notice these sentences. IME, most things that are called or associated with all sorts of "IP" are just controlled functions of, and controlled use of, relaxation. "Real" "IP" is IMHO nothing strange or mystic or out of the ordinary. But relaxation and using relaxation is, again IME, a skill that must be learned and built just as you learn and study use of strength. The body and structure can keep up itself if you let it do so. Softness let us use deep core muscles that we normally don't use but is in fact much stronger than those we use more commonly in daily life. Studying relaxation is in this respect studying strength, but a different strength that you can not achieve and build without first understanding relaxation.

Recently I wrote some more about this subject in my blog, but I think I just summed it up even better here. Anyway, if someone is interested...
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strength/

[slowEdie]

I Agree Bao, thanx for the link..https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strength/


I think the singularly biggest deprecation of TaiJi as IP is the practise of it as a performance, as a beautiful form for people to watch..I think the best TaiJi is done very very slowly- usual 20min form takes 1-1/2 hrs, very relaxed, very wet noodle, but not collapsed, and no thought of brushing an imaginary knee or splitting a liver, the mind is just on how is this soft relaxed body pushing its way thru space whilst conforming to the principles.

I don't train that way every session, just often enough to remind me...

[WVMark]

"There are any number of good grapplers who can relax in a positional change or hold. Which has nothin at all to do with structure or internal power. And there are, and number of good judoka who can exhibit good structure and then throw you with good technique that feels really ghosty-that has nothing to do with internal power."

Interesting... I didn't notice these sentences. IME, most things that are called or associated with all sorts of "IP" are just controlled functions of, and controlled use of, relaxation. "Real" "IP" is IMHO nothing strange or mystic or out of the ordinary. But relaxation and using relaxation is, again IME, a skill that must be learned and built just as you learn and study use of strength. The body and structure can keep up itself if you let it do so. Softness let us use deep core muscles that we normally don't use but is in fact much stronger than those we use more commonly in daily life. Studying relaxation is in this respect studying strength, but a different strength that you can not achieve and build without first understanding relaxation.

Recently I wrote some more about this subject in my blog, but I think I just summed it up even better here. Anyway, if someone is interested...
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strength/

I wouldn't call what you described above as Internal, or the kind of training I do for internal skills. What we train is different. Or at least as far as I can tell from how you've described it above.

[WVMark]

I Agree Bao, thanx for the link..https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -strength/


I think the singularly biggest deprecation of TaiJi as IP is the practise of it as a performance, as a beautiful form for people to watch..I think the best TaiJi is done very very slowly- usual 20min form takes 1-1/2 hrs, very relaxed, very wet noodle, but not collapsed, and no thought of brushing an imaginary knee or splitting a liver, the mind is just on how is this soft relaxed body pushing its way thru space whilst conforming to the principles.

I don't train that way every session, just often enough to remind me...

Again, not how I train internal skills. I wouldn't classify that training as internal either. But, that's just how I view things.

Mark

[Bao]

I wouldn't call what you described above as Internal, or the kind of training I do for internal skills. What we train is different. Or at least as far as I can tell from how you've described it above.

Sure, there are other aspects as tingjin, yi and shen. What was written above was generalized, but still, IMHO, everything internal, as tingjin, yi and shen, all starts from relaxation, focus and internally feeling, or body awareness.

[slowEdie]

everything internal, as tingjin, yi and shen, all starts from relaxation, focus and internally feeling, or body awareness.

Agree+1
,20min a day may contribute significantly to keeping the Dr. away, but you need 4hr min-+++ most days to really train it.

[WVMark]

bodywork has said

3. Relax as a value? That is such a waste of time the word should never be uttered in martial arts ever again.

Although I agree with a lot of your insights, this statement I believe to be contentious nonsense and quite contradictory of previous statements. Is this an evolution or devolution, or merely stirring the pot??
Relaxation is a defining attribute of "internal".

In the aikido world, you constantly hear things like, "relax", "relax completely", "don't tense up, just relax", etc. In 99% of the aikido world, none of that has helped anyone get closer to the founder Morihei Ueshiba's skills. In other words, there is no training methodology to "relax" in aikido. People muddle through as best they can. As a value, the word "relax" is utterly and completely useless.

Neither do I believe this, "usual 20min form takes 1-1/2 hrs, very relaxed, very wet noodle, but not collapsed" will get you that "needle in cotton", "rubber coated steel" kind of feel where there's power in softness. I've met people who are soft and issue power with zero windup that will break bones. They don't train the way you describe.

Relaxation is not a defining attribute of "internal". Dantien driven movement is. Reeling silk is. Whole body power is. Mountain echo is. Internal spirals are. When students grabbed Ueshiba, they once described it as if lightning hit them from an immovable mountain. Then they described him later as having been like a mountain but soft or ghostlike.

Anymore, If I hear a teacher say "relax", he/she might as well be saying "Go eat more rice" because IMO, it isn't going to get you anywhere close to the internal skills. There should be some direct supervision of specific training methodologies. If the word "relax" ever comes up, it should be in a secondary or tertiary way, removed from what you're really supposed to be working on.

All IMO,
Mark