the electric magnetic body - internal power -

[Dmitri]

hi glenn, thanks for

That was windwalker, not me; the quote is misattributed. Just FYI.

[Bhassler]

You all are deluded. The only effective way to fight is MMA. If you don't believe me, come see me at my parent's house and my brother will kick your ass. He's got videos on Taekwondo and Jujitsu and watches them and trains almost every day. Plus he's seen all the UFC fights, even the really old ones.

Whoa -- just take it easy, Dmitri, take it easy...

[windwalker]

Do you think this encounter was not 100% staged, like a WWF event? Honest question; wanted to make sure, because from the above quote it really looks like you think something real is taking place, but I don't want to assume.

I didnt post the org. clip.
one of the commemorators on the org clip posted the comment.

That doesn't have any relevance to my question...

I always find it odd, that people ask about another s thoughts with out answering a question.

I didn't notice being asked a question.

It matters little what I think, it's an interesting reaction.

It mattered enough to me, so I asked. Very simple question, a 'yes' or 'no' or 'none of your business' -- all would be simple and appropriate answers.
But you didn't answer it at all -- at least not directly...

I do believe the following confirms what I was thinking though, so I guess I'll have to assume after all.

How do you feel it was done?
what is often demoed, is not the way it's used.
whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

I think this particular exchange was staged in its entirety, so none of the above applies. This is a completely different process from the practice you are familiar with. But hey that's just my opinion... it's all good. Who knows, maybe I'm completely blind and deluded and that clip was for real.

re reading this let me start by apologizing for my muddled writing and thoughts.
I really dontl look at whether something is staged or not. I can say that I have felt and seen similar reactions as you mentioned.
while I dont dismiss nor defend the fails, it is interesting that the number of people who engage in such practices many long term hard stylist or from other disciplines
far out weigh what as shown as fails. Often the way in which its depicted IME is not actually the way in which its used. There are a number of factors that can change the type
and way a person will react, none of which is really pertinent here.

It is also interesting that just as those teaching "IP" also state while there are others out there the actual numbers that have real skill and can use are quite small.

As you know and maybe some others, its something that I've been studying / working on for some time, my thoughts on it are still formulating at this point.
While at one time I felt it might be similar to what others are doing as in for example "systema" or what some call "IP" just from reading others postings, and from those who practice systema, apparently its not.

[windwalker]

hi glenn, thanks for your time and effort is appreciated
for me the translation is pretty clear based on my interactions with others.
I would think if there is a problem with it, you might want to contact the one who translated it.

Umm. It's not really a translation if someone is choosing to ignore certain words or phrase them in a way that suits their agenda. But sure, I guess I could email Richard, just to see if he wants to join in the discussion. (Although, I wonder, has that ever worked on RSF before?)

I'm glad Wind quoted this text because I've heard it translated on the fly by a fluent Mandarin speaker and it's very different then what's written in this translation.

But no need to re-translate as it's the context of the whole thing that's important. The main point is that it's Very Basic as in Pre-School/ Kindergarten stuff to be able to feel another person's qi. This can be learned in a few hours. Perfected over a few months but only with a willing and cooperative partner/ training partner, not "opponent".

It's a 餵勁 Wei Jin (Feeding Energy):

The old Bagua teacher is showing IMA body mechanics and principles with a cooperative partner; it's a learning process known as "feeding energy," or 餵勁 in Chinese, and certainly should not to be viewed as fighting applications.

But this very basic way of practice should be stopped, as it's other Internal Martial practices that will years later allow you to come back to this.

This Basic practice is like learning how to write the alphabet using 'Block Letters', a practice that is stopped around 1st/ 2nd Grade and then Cursive writing is taught, and most people spend the rest of their lives perfecting their cursive. It can even be done as an Art. Artwork in China and Japan, that people buy and hang on their wall.

Do you want to spend your life practicing this:


Or this:


.

Translated by Richard Man, [email protected]
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition
Donations of any amount, even $1, $2, gladly accepted. You may send money to my email
address above or use this link:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi­bin/webscr?cmd=_s­xclick&hosted_button_id=RR3DQHEM38D9S
Last Edit: 2013/08/05 Status: 23 out of 100+ pages completed. ONLY MINIMAL EDITING and
English cleanup have been done.

Translator’s Notes: The majority of the text are words from master Wang Yongquan himself.
Occasionally there are commentaries by the editor 劉金印 Liu Jin Yin. These are notated as
such and written in italic font and prefixed by “Editor’s Notes:”. Any commentaries by the
translator will be marked as such: {translator: …}

@ d_glenn,

ONLY MINIMAL EDITING and
English cleanup have been done.

how is any of this an agenda?
no worries about emailing the author, I will email him regarding his translations.
Most if not all my students are native speakers either from Taiwan, or China, none them have mentioned
any thing about it. Of those I know in China, I dont really see much that they would disagree with.

there are other works by the same teacher which have been translated by others basically saying the same things.

But I am curious as to your points. It would be good if the translator of what was posted would come and address your points here
but he may not.

cheers
d

[Dmitri]

I just love puppies!

Feck you you fecking fecker!!

It's OK Brian, spring is in the air, I understand.

[richardman]

Hello, since I have been summoned A few notes about this translation:

- This is a "work-in-progress," and in fact, currently on hold as I have too many other commitments.
- I am a native Chinese speaker, already translating a highly technical text from one language to another language will always raise some issues.
- I am not learning from the Wang Yongquan lineage at all. I just found his writing interesting and important.
- My Sifu's teaching is about "no detectable force," which is not the same as "Empty Force" that has frequently showed up.

D_glenn specifically mentioned a couple deficiencies:
1) 對方 as "opponent" (my translation) or "training partner". The Chinese by itself does not say which one is more correct. Obviously this thread treads on the "but can it fight?" aspect and I can see how it can be important to make the distinction in the context of addressing this thread. I have no opinion on this matter, but as I read through sifu Wang's writing, I do not believe he makes a distinction of whether someone is a training partner or a random opponent. FWIW.

2) 在初級階段，與對方一搭手 "When you first study and touch hand with your opponent" (my translation) vs "In the Very Basic/Beginning stages of training, when you Cross/ Bridge hands/ forearms with your training partner, " I do not see much difference in the two translations, although my meager effort can indeed be clarified. The key of this statement is that this refers to the "beginners" and thus more skills as you study more. I do not think 一搭手 is specifically Cross / Bridge Hands / Forearms but a general concept of "touch hand," i.e. it could be a hand touch other person's hand, or other part of his body. I do not think it's specific to the forearm.

I hope this clarifies some points. I am afraid I do not frequent this forum much, but I will try to stay on top of this thread, at least the part pertinent to my contributions.

BTW, this is me with a piece of calligraphy I have done a couple years ago:

[windwalker]

Hi, Richard

Welcome to Rumsoakedfist.

I hope you have time to read some of the other topics,
we are a collection of people very passionate about Chinese Internal arts, and other related arts.
Any thoughts shared would be very interesting.

Thanks for your time
and again thank you for your translations

If your in Beijing, the next time I go there,
maybe we can share a cup of tea or coffee.

kind regards

david

[Bhassler]

I just love puppies!

Feck you you fecking fecker!!

It's OK Brian, spring is in the air, I understand.

[D_Glenn]

That was windwalker, not me; the quote is misattributed. Just FYI.

My deepest apologies. It's the similar looking avatars that threw me off, especially on a smartphone.

.

[D_Glenn]

Hello, since I have been summoned A few notes about this translation:

- This is a "work-in-progress," and in fact, currently on hold as I have too many other commitments.
- I am a native Chinese speaker, already translating a highly technical text from one language to another language will always raise some issues.
- I am not learning from the Wang Yongquan lineage at all. I just found his writing interesting and important.
- My Sifu's teaching is about "no detectable force," which is not the same as "Empty Force" that has frequently showed up.

D_glenn specifically mentioned a couple deficiencies:
1) 對方 as "opponent" (my translation) or "training partner". The Chinese by itself does not say which one is more correct. Obviously this thread treads on the "but can it fight?" aspect and I can see how it can be important to make the distinction in the context of addressing this thread. I have no opinion on this matter, but as I read through sifu Wang's writing, I do not believe he makes a distinction of whether someone is a training partner or a random opponent. FWIW.

2) 在初級階段，與對方一搭手 "When you first study and touch hand with your opponent" (my translation) vs "In the Very Basic/Beginning stages of training, when you Cross/ Bridge hands/ forearms with your training partner, " I do not see much difference in the two translations, although my meager effort can indeed be clarified. The key of this statement is that this refers to the "beginners" and thus more skills as you study more. I do not think 一搭手 is specifically Cross / Bridge Hands / Forearms but a general concept of "touch hand," i.e. it could be a hand touch other person's hand, or other part of his body. I do not think it's specific to the forearm.

I hope this clarifies some points. I am afraid I do not frequent this forum much, but I will try to stay on top of this thread, at least the part pertinent to my contributions.

BTW, this is me with a piece of calligraphy I have done a couple years ago:

Nice calligraphy.

1) Usually 人 Ren is 'Opponent' in the CIMA texts and Classic Songs. This is because we're usually always talking about Self-Defense and any other person with a knife in their hand could potentially kill you. In Push Hands practice the other person is a 人虛擬 Ren Xuni (Imaginary Opponent/ Virtual; Proxy Enemy).

2) I was only pointing out that there is physical contact and that it's not a text about 'No-Touch' or Lin Kong Jin (Empty Force). (And, LKJ is Windwalker's agenda on here, BTW).

My teacher was actually friends with Wang Yongquan. He had some detailed discussions about Internal Martial arts with him. My teacher spent many weekends traveling around China, being introduced to many old-timers by their friends. Drinking tea and talking about Chinese Internal Martial Arts. He's literally a walking encyclopedia of Chinese Martial arts.

.

[richardman]

it's not a text about 'No-Touch' or Lin Kong Jin (Empty Force).

Correct, sifu Wang does not address LKJ per se in his books. The only person of WYQ's lineage that uses LKJ is the (in-)famous Shi Ming. All the others, as far as I can see, are "light touch."

[//EDIT: I do not imply that sifu Shi Ming is in-famous, only that because of his Bill Moyer connection, half of the MA community uses him as a negative example, which is a shame really. Most LKJ discussions are far from productive, IMHO]

As far as I am concerned, the subject of LKJ has been discussed to death on online forums. It's definitely not a subject I wish to be engaged in

[windwalker]

LKJ is Windwalker's agenda on here, BTW

agenda here, agenda there, everywhere an agenda.

Actually I dont have one, and I have always maintained that whether touched or not the "process" is the same

but carry on back to the regular scheduled programming.

[richardman]

My goal is not to participate in the online forum XD

[ //EDIT: unnecessary stuff removed. #6 is left as "Taste of Death" commented on it. ]

6) There are many ways to generate "internal power." In Chinese, they are called from the bones, from the tendons, and from Qi. None is superior, but most disagreement arise from not understanding these differences.

Be well..

[Taste of Death]

There are many ways to generate "internal power." In Chinese, they are called from the bones, from the tendons, and from Qi. None is superior, but most disagreement arise from not understanding these differences.

This statement is the yellow brick road of gong fu. Most of the discussions on RSF have taken the other path.

To Oz!

[richardman]

I apologize for rocking the status quo. This will be my last post on this thread unless there are specific comments that ask for me . In fact, I will delete some of the comments.