the electric magnetic body - internal power -

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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby windwalker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Bhassler wrote:An intro to the body and electricity:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-b ... ricity.htm

Considering that the brain maps the space around our bodies before mapping our bodies themselves, it may be that the perceived sensation that Graham is talking about is an output of the nervous system that does not reflect an actual force (magnetic or otherwise) outside the body.


The words magnetic used by some are more descriptive then actually what it is by what ever name its called.
Even the word "qi" is defined by sensations not by what it is itself.

People gen use a descriptive word that describes a feeling as in the case of "electric or magnetic"
that may or may not be truly electric or magnetic in the true sense of the word.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby dspyrido on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:21 pm

kenneth fish wrote:In my opinion, this is a good example of something entirely different than what was intended by the OP. It shows, again IMO, how someone who is sincere and mildly delusional but reasonably well spoken and convincing in his sincerity can elicit a suspension of disbelief from viewers or listeners and have them participate in his delusion. From such talents are religions born (or cults or mystical beliefs).


You would be a lot of fun to take to a modern artists launch, a body mind festival, psychic or tarot card reading or any hollywood blockbuster. I'd say 10 minutes should about do it.

Btw your synopsis of mark is on the money. He does seem well spoken, convincing, sincere & midly delusional. He also appears built like a truck so perhaps a few too many questions might see the release of an interesting energetic aspect deep from within the 3rd chakra.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby Bhassler on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:50 pm

windwalker wrote:
Bhassler wrote:An intro to the body and electricity:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-b ... ricity.htm

Considering that the brain maps the space around our bodies before mapping our bodies themselves, it may be that the perceived sensation that Graham is talking about is an output of the nervous system that does not reflect an actual force (magnetic or otherwise) outside the body.


The words magnetic used by some are more descriptive then actually what it is by what ever name its called.
Even the word "qi" is defined by sensations not by what it is itself.

People gen use a descriptive word that describes a feeling as in the case of "electric or magnetic"
that may or may not be truly electric or magnetic in the true sense of the word.


Personally, I don't care whether he meant it literally or metaphorically, as neither description is particularly useful to me. Graham had asked about supporting science and I just threw out a couple of ideas that folks could look into if they were inclined.

If talking about magnetism or chi or magic jin faeries makes someone's practice better, then more power to them, I say. I find it annoying when people try to impose their particular half-baked world views on others and/or ignore the validity of other approaches and pretend that they're all something radically different, but that sort of behavior is essentially the human condition and to be fair I find most of humanity irritating by it's very existence. This explains my thrilling social life, as well.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
--Moshe Feldenkrais
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby KEND on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:51 pm

Thanks for bringing some science to the table Ken. There is a tendency for new age people to ascribe pseudo science to phenomena without testing or even understanding the nature of the phenomenon. That the body has electric and magnetic fields has been known for a long time [see Beckers books-The Body Electric etc]. The electric gradients in cells can be large but in general the magnetic fields are very small, a small fraction of the earths magnetic field. The fields can have an effect at a cellular level but in no way are responsible for the muscular contractions in the feet. There are simpler more easily understood explanations for internal power. Please let us get away from the mystical 'chi' explanations , and quantum entanglement and things unknown to science, first exhaust the logical explanations before going to the esoteric. Incidentally the 'magnetic hands' is a sort of trick, ; holding the hands in a 'tree' stance engages sets of small muscles in an isometric fashion, when you breathe in the chest expands forcing the hands apart, this eventually can be done without the breath by intent[the basis of expanding power=pao chuan]
The 'chi' is a convenient metaphor but we need a new paradigm
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby windwalker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:04 pm

Bhassler wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Bhassler wrote:An intro to the body and electricity:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-b ... ricity.htm

Considering that the brain maps the space around our bodies before mapping our bodies themselves, it may be that the perceived sensation that Graham is talking about is an output of the nervous system that does not reflect an actual force (magnetic or otherwise) outside the body.


The words magnetic used by some are more descriptive then actually what it is by what ever name its called.
Even the word "qi" is defined by sensations not by what it is itself.

People gen use a descriptive word that describes a feeling as in the case of "electric or magnetic"
that may or may not be truly electric or magnetic in the true sense of the word.


Personally, I don't care whether he meant it literally or metaphorically, as neither description is particularly useful to me. Graham had asked about supporting science and I just threw out a couple of ideas that folks could look into if they were inclined.

If talking about magnetism or chi or magic jin faeries makes someone's practice better, then more power to them, I say. I find it annoying when people try to impose their particular half-baked world views on others and/or ignore the validity of other approaches and pretend that they're all something radically different, but that sort of behavior is essentially the human condition and to be fair I find most of humanity irritating by it's very existence. This explains my thrilling social life, as well.


The link was pretty good, read much of it before, also having some training in chemical agents used in warfare I have a little familiarity with the processes of nerve synapses ect.
Maybe I wasnt to clear, the science may not yet support what people feel or say they feel at this time.
For those who dont have a word for such feelings they associate them with others that they feel are similar in nature.

best of luck with the "humanity" thing
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:56 pm

KEND wrote:The 'chi' is a convenient metaphor but we need a new paradigm


Bingo +1
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:59 pm

dspyrido wrote:You would be a lot of fun to take to a modern artists launch, a body mind festival, psychic or tarot card reading or any hollywood blockbuster. I'd say 10 minutes should about do it.


I am a sucker for the movies and the avante garde, but the other stuff drives me crazy.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby Bhassler on Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:26 pm

windwalker wrote:the science may not yet support what people feel or say they feel at this time.


No doubt-- science is by it's nature limited in what it can look at, and really whether we want to talk about qi or neurology or biomechanics or anything else it's all just modelling so we can better articulate ourselves.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby chud on Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:45 pm

Bhassler wrote:Considering that the brain maps the space around our bodies before mapping our bodies themselves...


Good point, and probably why the basis for good chi kung is knowing where your body is in relation to its external environment.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby everything on Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:26 pm

Bhassler wrote:
windwalker wrote:the science may not yet support what people feel or say they feel at this time.


No doubt-- science is by it's nature limited in what it can look at, and really whether we want to talk about qi or neurology or biomechanics or anything else it's all just modelling so we can better articulate ourselves.


a lot of people don't understand that. probably a lot of forum posters who argue something like "that isn't scientific" or "not proven" or some such "mental masturbation" (not directed at anyone in particular) without realizing their argument is resting on completely faulty premises (because they don't get "science"). science tries to reject a null hypothesis ideally in a double-blind experiment which really needs to be "not holistic" but isolated. "science" isn't trying to "explain qi", whatever you think "qi" is. but whatever. let's talk in circles like we always do. :-\ :P :-[
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:12 pm

Thing is, if it's magnetic, it could be measured with the instruments used to measure magnetism. Afa human magnetism, per se, or better, let's say human emission of electro-magnetic energy, that is measurable. All living things emit electro-magnetic energy. The question becomes the human ability to detect it. We don't have anything like a shark's ampullae of lorenzini, though the potential for such an organ is probably innate in all dna. My point isn't to discount the idea that someone feels something between the hands when doing qigong. I'm saying that, if it is magnetism, then it should be measurable as such. Otoh, if it's just a feeling, how do we know that it's magnetism or something else? Of course, we could argue forever about the subjectivity of "feeling" and the difficulty of knowing exactly what Anyone else feels.

Otooh, yi always accompanies qi, so saying that the feeling is psychosomatic isn't necessarily far off ;)
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:14 pm

Ok, simple experiment. Get your feeling going between your hands. Then, have a friend suspend a bar magnet in between them on a string. See if anything happens.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby windwalker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:22 pm



This has been shown before.
I like the doctors approach to the question.
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby KEND on Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:57 pm

I started learning martial
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Re: the electric magnetic body - internal power -

Postby Bhassler on Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:51 pm

everything wrote:
Bhassler wrote:
windwalker wrote:the science may not yet support what people feel or say they feel at this time.


No doubt-- science is by it's nature limited in what it can look at, and really whether we want to talk about qi or neurology or biomechanics or anything else it's all just modelling so we can better articulate ourselves.


a lot of people don't understand that. probably a lot of forum posters who argue something like "that isn't scientific" or "not proven" or some such "mental masturbation" (not directed at anyone in particular) without realizing their argument is resting on completely faulty premises (because they don't get "science"). science tries to reject a null hypothesis ideally in a double-blind experiment which really needs to be "not holistic" but isolated. "science" isn't trying to "explain qi", whatever you think "qi" is. but whatever. let's talk in circles like we always do. :-\ :P :-[


I'd go further and differentiate between "science" (formalized scientific experimentation), that which is scientific (following the methods of science but not necessarily formalized and/or may operate outside of the prevailing western scientific model in a domain), and evidence (which is concerned with documentation of ostensibly scientific pursuits).
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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