the electric magnetic body - internal power -

[everything]

I like that categorization.

People cannot see or feel various kinds of "energy". For example, you cannot detect the radiation (although you can detect the heat or visible light) from your cellphone. There aren't really studies, controlled experiments, scientific knowledge, but you might believe this energy exists and is harmful.

Conversely, in this hand case, most of us can feel whatever that energy is; we might believe it's probably helpful, but we don't really know anything about it from studies, controlled experiments, or scientific knowledge either. Some might believe this "energy" doesn't exist. Some might think it's really x or y. Some might not want to talk about x or y, but about something else like muscles. That's sort of like saying let's not talk about the radiation from cellphones, but let's talk about the heat, the light, the screen, the apps.

Back to our normal circular, talk past ourselves discussion...

[XiaoXiong]

So I found these concepts extremely helpful, have worked with some of Mark's students, as well as Yang taiji, and have made a lot of progress putting these concepts together. I also study hermetics and stoic philosophy which jives very well with the eastern esoteric traditions. These are ancient terms, not scientific. It pays to understand the framing of the terminology here, and not conflate concepts based on semantics, but to try to get the meaning behind the terms.
Jess

[GrahamB]

I don't worry about the pseudo science in esoteric subjects myself. It's all symbolism anyway, so if he says "magnetic" I don't think to myself that he literally means magnetic, in the scientific sense, just 'feels magnetic'.

"veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols"

[everything]

I got a bit lost on the hermetics and stoic philosophy comments. Is that a terminology framing tangent or also a practical matter related to the "electric magnetic" and "power" discussion? Thanks for any clarification.

[GrahamB]

I merely meant that in anything to do with an esoteric subject (i.e. hermetic) you can't take anything literally.

[Bhassler]

The question of what can be sensed is interesting. Weber-Fechner's law states that the change in a stimulus that will be just noticeable is a constant ratio of the original stimulus. So you can feel a one pound weight but if you're already holding up a refrigerator, then the one pound weight will most likely not be noticeable. Charles Sanders-Pierce experimented further and found that people could reliably predict a stimulus even when it was below the threshold of conscious perception.

This fits with what we know about sensation, as there's really no such thing as a pain receptor, etc-- those sensations are an output of the brain. One ramification of this is that sensation may not so much be governed by what we feel as by how we train our brains to interpret or ignore sensory inputs.

More on Fechner and Sanders-Peirce (written from a Feldenkrais perspective):
http://semiophysics.com/SemioPhysics_Ar ... isk_3.html

[Steve James]

Well, if he said attraction or repulsion, he would have been saying the same thing as "like a magnetic force."
Sure, he can say it's magnetism, not scientific magnetism, but another type of magnetism. I could say it's atomic energy, but not scientific atomic energy. It's probably better to stick with qi. Then, at least, there might be some agreement on what we're not talking about.

[Ron Panunto]

Conversely, in this hand case, most of us can feel whatever that energy is; we might believe it's probably helpful, but we don't really know anything about it from studies, controlled experiments, or scientific knowledge either. Some might believe this "energy" doesn't exist. Some might think it's really x or y. Some might not want to talk about x or y, but about something else like muscles. That's sort of like saying let's not talk about the radiation from cellphones, but let's talk about the heat, the light, the screen, the apps.

Your missing the point. There is no energy between your hands. You simply created what that energy would feel like in your mind.

[sinkpoint]

Complete pseudo science.
Are there magnetic fields in the body? In the strictest technical sense, yes. There are electric pulses travelling along your nerve bundles, as well as the brain, that would generate a small magenetic field as it propagates, similar to how powerlines would have magnetic fields around them. However the energy of the magnetic field is so small that, we are talking ten orders of magnitude to the environmental field interferences (i.e earth), that with Magnetoencephalography machines (MEG), they required a heavily shielded room to detect with very specialized coils (SQUIDS, superconducting quantum interference device), and even then it's not a completely solved problem. So how can the body detect these fields in body temperature, with no shielding, and no specialized sensors?
The "force" one feels with magnets are simple pressure sensitive mechanoreceptor in the body that detects force of the interaction between magnets, not the field itself. The average home magnet would also have a field strength several order of magnitude larger than any body emitted field.

If we can detect magnetic fields, the first thing we'd notice are all kind of environmental magnetic fields around us. In fact that nobody bats an eye when walking below powerlines or when using any electrical devices, or go crazy when undergoing MRIs (MRI's magnetic field is another several orders of magnitude above earth's) shows that we don't have this ability.

[everything]

I think that's why Steve and others are right that we can say we feel qi w/o some attempts to explain it as x or y or z. You cannot feel the MRI, good point.

Still, like graham, I think a lot of us wonder what the x or y or zs could be in that sensation.

[novamma]

sounds like a bunch of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo.

keep the eastern terms with the chinese martial arts and not import western metaphysics into it. We already have enough "fajin Qi ballers" nut cases in CMA already. We don't need more cults to take CMA into wild tangents...there is already enough of that non-sense going on already.

[XiaoXiong]

It's terminology for common phenomena. The Greeks and Romans are describing the same thing as Hermes and the Daoists and Buddhists and Hindus. They are all talking about the same thing from different paradigms. In order to understand yin and yang it can pay to seek out dualities of nature as described in any philosophy if it helps you to understand the principals of nature, which of course apply to martial arts. The elements, the yin yang or electric and magnetic... etc. I study this stuff because it's useful... ymmv.
Jess

[emptycloud]

Mark Rasmus is not so woo - woo...

His use of language and beliefs can be overlooked. I disagree with many of my teachers beliefs but he still has a lot to teach me about movement, about 30yrs more experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBM4doqItv0

Rich

[everything]

nice video. "grab the spine". "bouncing isn't a martial technique". vocabulary that is super easy to understand. "stimulate fascia" and "power development exercise" still makes sense, too. "listening energy" and "first touch" also makes sense. on a tangent "first touch" is a very basic term in football/soccer - kind of referring to your "listening energy" and how you then control the ball on first touch depending on its movement, etc., and the surrounding situation. such a useful term but never heard it used in this context in a similar way (aside from the fantastic stories or mysterious experiences). kinesthetically it is rather similar if you know what i'm talking about.

[emptycloud]

nice video. "grab the spine". "bouncing isn't a martial technique". vocabulary that is super easy to understand. "stimulate fascia" and "power development exercise" still makes sense, too. "listening energy" and "first touch" also makes sense. on a tangent "first touch" is a very basic term in football/soccer - kind of referring to your "listening energy" and how you then control the ball on first touch depending on its movement, etc., and the surrounding situation. such a useful term but never heard it used in this context in a similar way (aside from the fantastic stories or mysterious experiences). kinesthetically it is rather similar if you know what i'm talking about.

I agree with you on this particular vid, I was referencing earlier discussions on the thread about electric/magnetic energies, etc.