Never Go To The Ground!!!

[Aqui]

Hey guys, one of my FMA buddies just sent me this horrible vid (Warning Graphic).

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=caf_1425147486

I wonder how you guys here assess the situation?

How to prepare and avoid, etc?

Thanks,

Aqui

[Wanderingdragon]

Don't know what the assessment was before the altercation began, did he think he was among friends ? did he know it was two against one?, did he think it was man to man ? For sure you have to know any street altercation is for survival , no matter. NEVER get tangled , never grab, hit, hit ,hit and finish, Don't even kick, if you don't set it up properly your leg is just dangling for a catch, you can throw someone down but try to hurt them with the ground so you can leave them there, NEVER go down there with him. In this case it looked like a sprawl would have been a better answer , to stay on top with opportunity to disengage. In my experience if caught in a single leg and your losing balance, I have gone to strike the back and top of the head on the way down, they come down on top of you but your hands and head are free, you have something to work with. you want to always be able to hit and see. this takedown that he did put him at a disadvantage , his head and upper body were covered and controlled by his opponent who obviously knew the same BJJ technique, Ronda used it last night, that's sport! You have know arm strength and as you see, you can get deaded. NEVER GET TANGLED, if you do get tangled find some way to keep your self propped up , a wall, or in this case a tree. DONT GO DOWN, just my two pennies.

[hodmeist]

As soon as the film started, I wondered what the bystander was doing. It's hard to make an assessment without knowing the facts. Like Dragon says above, did he think the bystander was a passer by or a friend of the initial opponent. Knowing that would obviously decide upon what tactics to adopt. If he knew that both men came as a package so to speak, he could have done a lot worse than banging out the "bystander" from the off. In a two on one situation, you have to absolutely wipe out one of them immediately. Perhaps not politically correct and perhaps not to everyone's agreement and taste but there you go. I do not advocate going to the ground under any circumstances in the street for two reasons - 1. Vulnerability and 2. I can't ground fight.

[Aqui]

Thanks Wanderingdragon & Hodmeister for your input, I couldnt agree more!

An interesting idea came up in a conversation with my friend that sent me this link:

He said that "BJJ or Submission Grappling (or any other art that focuses on the ground) is actually detrimental for your self defense/ protection. If you are comfortable fighting on the ground and trained to transition from clinch to ground, these reactions are burnt in your neuropathways and hence under extreme stress (real fight) your body automatically goes to the ground instead of doing everything in your might to stay upright."

At first this statement seemed weird, but the more I think about it, the more I think it is right. You should ALWAYS train ground avoidance (or getting up as fast as possible) instead of groundfighting the way BJJ does!

What do you guys think? Is this statement valid or bull???

Maybe some BJJ guys could share their opinions.

Thanks,

Aqui

[Overlord]

Took a while for someone to point this out.

Weapon training and BJJ, wrestling, judo, and even boxing are just with different approach and mindset.
Thanks for pointing this out straight. Great contribution.

[Steve James]

Well, to develop a flawless takedown defense, it will probably be necessary to have experience being taken down. Otoh, "never go to the ground" could be modified to "never stay on the ground" and work. After all, if by some chance your takedown defense fails, then --unless one wants to stay on the ground-- the next skill to work on is getting back up. No?

[Spncr]

Three things stand out in my mind as far as street relevant ground skills go.

1. How to fall safely
2. Basic ground skills (guards and escapes)
3. How to stand up safely

[dspyrido]

He said that "BJJ or Submission Grappling (or any other art that focuses on the ground) is actually detrimental for your self defense/ protection. If you are comfortable fighting on the ground and trained to transition from clinch to ground, these reactions are burnt in your neuropathways and hence under extreme stress (real fight) your body automatically goes to the ground instead of doing everything in your might to stay upright."

At first this statement seemed weird, but the more I think about it, the more I think it is right. You should ALWAYS train ground avoidance (or getting up as fast as possible) instead of groundfighting the way BJJ does!

What do you guys think? Is this statement valid or bull???

No one I train with only trains for the ground and that includes bjj and submission wrestlers. They all mix it up. Perhaps there are purists out there idk. That said:

1. If you want to learn ground avoidance you need to learn it by training with experts who know how to take you to the ground. Not this fly weight rubbish but real technicians or monsters of takedown.
2. Similarly if you want to learn escapes you want to practise them with the experts who know how to put them.
3. The only guys fighting on neuropathways are the guys who have never fought. With experience you stop reacting because you realise a cool head to think clearly is far more important in reality so as to avoid getting caught in the ambush.

In summary if you always practise to avoid the ground then if you end up there you will be wishing you spent a bit of time traing on the ground.

A final important missing point here - the video should not be viewed as a lesson on avoiding all ground training. It should be an example that people can be outright bastards and weapons can mess you up. Spend a bit of time with a good weapons expert to understand them. Also guys who work in tough spots to hear the stories.

[Overlord]

During the Central National Guoshu Institute period, there were many disputes btw martial schools.
Of which, there was this guy specialising in Shuaijiao wrestling, some baji, and a Xingyi internalist who train underLi Jinglin in Wudang sword.

And because of wrestler's dislike for internal arts, feud breaks off and the internalist invite the wrestler to a sword dual.
Of course it's done with stick and the internalist won.

Each is his own, but weapon works different bc unlike exchangin punches, you can't walk away unscathed thinking exchange stabs or wrestling against it. The context just different.

[Greg J]

A final important missing point here - the video should not be viewed as a lesson on avoiding all ground training. It should be an example that people can be outright bastards and weapons can mess you up.

Very true! It is important to train fighting an undetermined number of attackers, who may or may not deploy hidden weapons.

Here is one drill that can help replicate the uncertainty of an attack when group training. Everyone gears up, and the fighter leaves the room. The teacher picks a certain number of people to be Bad Guys (and the number should change, round to round). The group arranges themselves informally around the room, and the fighter comes back in. Bad Guy #1 walks up and provokes a fight. This is a time for the fighter to practice using words to set up a verbal fence, to get the attention of bystanders and to establish that (s)he is being attacked and is trying to leave. This may or may not work (depending on the scenario the teacher set up). If it doesn't, the fighter can move into his/ her physical fence and try to leave. This is the goal of the drill - for the fighter to leave the room with a minimum amount of fighting. All strikes/ attacks are done with this in mind. At any point, other Bad Guys can jump in (so it becomes a multiple attacker scenario). Hidden weapons should be allowed. While fighting, the fighter should be calling for help/ the police, and establishing that (s)he is being attacked.

Once you do this drill, your realize the value of throw downs over take downs, and as Aqui stated, "ground avoidance (or getting up as fast as possible)". And training the three areas that Spncr mentioned: falling safely, basic ground skills (guards and escapes), and getting up quickly and safely. You also establish and reinforce the goal of getting away safely.

Ultimately one's personal goals will influence what one does or doesn't and how they train. Everybody trains for different reasons, and it isn't my place to tell people what or how they should train. But if you are training to be able to use your art for self-defense, it is helpful to remember the Dog Brothers maxim that "you will do in the adrenal state what you have trained in the adrenal state."

Best,

Greg

[fuga]

One of the things I really enjoy about the Dog Brothers gathering videos is the use of the hidden weapons. Shows how fast a perceived safe/okay position can go to "you just been stabbed."

I wonder at what point they will start allowing hidden opponents.

Greg, where do you train your DBMA? I study with Antone Dog in NorCal.

[Greg J]

Hi Fuga!

I study with C-Shadow Dog in Illinois. I saw Dog Antone in action at last year's Open Gathering. He is very, very good!

Best,

Greg

[fuga]

Yes, I have the welts on my leg to prove how good Antone is. Woof!

[allen2saint]

Damn, Brazil is one tough place. No sirens. People just walk by the guy. Jeez.

[Wanderingdragon]

Yeah that is scary.