Old Yang Style Dao

[Bob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtrVtpD2iqU



Other:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiutRpPr424



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3hAepZqGsM

[Ron Panunto]

Why do you say it's "Old Yang Style Dao"? I learned the same form from T.T. Liang, and as far as I know he never said he taught "Old Yangjia." I believe the form shown is the standard Yang dao.

[Bob]

I've posted a response to you 3 times but when I submit it logs out.

TT Liang also learned from the practitioner below (see his VHS tape "Plum blossom .... in the Wind" for the da qiang training of Hsiung Yang Ho - its in my collection somewhere and was an early eye opener for me regarding Yang training).

Hsiung Yang Ho (Disciple of Yang Shao Hou): form, pushing-hands, san-shou, meditation, sword, and sword fencing. The dao form I posted does not resemble the Yang Cheng Fu line and is probably from the Yang Shao Hou line which I labeled as "Old". Maybe older would have been a better term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Apn1lozJY



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6JUIfDbDXo

New Yang Style Tai Chi Dao from (Yang Jun in China )



The clip I initially posted resemble more closely the taiji dao form I learned coming out of the Zhang Xiang Wu - Li Yun Qiao - Tony Yang line.

[Bao]

I've posted a response to you 3 times but when I submit it logs out.

I learned about this log out time a long time a go and always ctrl/cmd+a and ctrl/cmd+c before I press post.
.... Not trying to teach you, just saying this as an advice to anyone else who does not post regularly... Always copy the text before hitting the submit button....

The dao form I posted does not resemble the Yang Cheng Fu line and is probably from the Yang Shao Hou line which I labeled as "Old". Maybe older would have been a better term.

What I have understood, the Dao is a quite recent invention in Tai Chi Chuan, so there are in fact no real "old style" broadsword. And IMHO it's easy to understand this if you know a few forms and lineages. There are no standards, not regarding the movements, and he forms have no standardized traditional names for the individual movements.

[Bob]

I've posted a response to you 3 times but when I submit it logs out.

I learned about this log out time a long time a go and always ctrl/cmd+a and ctrl/cmd+c before I press post.
.... Not trying to teach you, just saying this as an advice to anyone else who does not post regularly... Always copy the text before hitting the submit button....

The dao form I posted does not resemble the Yang Cheng Fu line and is probably from the Yang Shao Hou line which I labeled as "Old". Maybe older would have been a better term.

What I have understood, the Dao is a quite recent invention in Tai Chi Chuan, so there are in fact no real "old style" broadsword. And IMHO it's easy to understand this if you know a few forms and lineages. There are no standards, not regarding the movements, and he forms have no standardized traditional names for the individual movements.

Sincere thanks regarding your advice but the trouble is I have posted here quite a number of years and indeed should have known better. LOL I was in a hurry had to get to some other material - patience was what I needed and also a bit of old memory on my part.

Thanks

[Bo Fei Li]

What I have understood, the Dao is a quite recent invention in Tai Chi Chuan, so there are in fact no real "old style" broadsword. And IMHO it's easy to understand this if you know a few forms and lineages. There are no standards, not regarding the movements, and he forms have no standardized traditional names for the individual movements.

Why would such a common and widely used weapon like the dao only be used recently by people studiying TJQ?
It makes perfect sense to me that every self-respecting martial artist of ancient China would have knowledge of the dao and incorporate it into his studies, no?
Another question altogether is if that specific form is “old style” or not…

[Bob]

Well first you need to fix the quote in your post as I did not state what is posted below my name, i.e. "Bob wrote:

It appears as though that quote is attributable to me and it is not - within our line the dao is indeed the very first weapon we learn (okay sometimes its the staff but mainly the dao).

However, I really do not know what the original Yang family line learned and trained.

As I have written previously (and documented) Chinese culture in general is known to adopt principles, material, medicine to their unique needs as they see fit and claim it to be attributable a legendary person or character.

It would not be beyond belief that someone earlier, who was adept at the dao, learned Yang's taijiquan and decided to incorporate it into their teachings and attribute its practice to Yang Luchan. However, that is pure speculation on my part - an assertion of imagination. LOL

Okay, perhaps a better choice of words for the title of the post would be "Older Version of the Yang style Taiji Dao". LOL

[Bao]

Why would such a common and widely used weapon like the dao only be used recently by people studiying TJQ?
It makes perfect sense to me that every self-respecting martial artist of ancient China would have knowledge of the dao and incorporate it into his studies, no?
Another question altogether is if that specific form is “old style” or not…

It has surely been studied by tai chi people, but it was only recently incorporated in the art. And it's, yes, a very old weapon. Some people say the very first sword in ancient chinese history. Why there are no old records of the Dao in Tai Chi? I don't know really. The Dao is a heavy weapon which is mostly used very differently from most principles and methods found in Tai Chi. It's hard to incorporate with a Tai Chi shenfa. But this I guess should be more of a reason to actually study the Dao. The Dao use evident movements, no very refined moves or tactics at all, but still it can be a very good tool for practice. This means that you always see clearly what you do and that you can measure quite a few skills by practicing the Dao.

[Ron Panunto]

The Chen system has both single dao and double dao forms, and Chenjia goes back quite a few centuries, so I doubt how new it is.

[wayne hansen]

I learnt both yang and Wu forms of the broadsword both totally different so that says something
Huang hesien hsen created his own form which is a combination of both
CMC says the 5 elements of tai chi are
Fist. Earth
Pole. Wood
Spear. Fire
Dao Metal
Sword. Water
I teach them in that order

[Steve James]

Here is a Yang (Tung Family) dao set. http://www.chipellis.com/videos/Tung%20 ... %20Set.WMV
You may need a plugin to play it.

[Trip]

Here is a Yang (Tung Family) dao set. http://www.chipellis.com/videos/Tung%20 ... %20Set.WMV
You may need a plugin to play it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1V-JrzQJCE


Below is the Tung 2nd dao set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnl4OV2BjM

[willywrong]

The Dao is a heavy weapon which is mostly used very differently from most principles and methods found in Tai Chi. It's hard to incorporate with a Tai Chi shenfa. But this I guess should be more of a reason to actually study the Dao. The Dao use evident movements, no very refined moves or tactics at all, but still it can be a very good tool for practice. This means that you always see clearly what you do and that you can measure quite a few skills by practicing the Dao

.

I'm not sure that the Dao is hard to incorporate into the mechanics of Tai Chi. Have never had a problem but I train with all different weighted implements ( baseball bat). The form that I do employs the centrifugal and centripetal forces with very little expressions of energy at the point of the blade. I also think that there are some very subtle tactical expressions of usage but I have been using the dao consistently for 42 years.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
It has surely been studied by tai chi people, but it was only recently incorporated in the art. And it's, yes, a very old weapon. Some people say the very first sword in ancient chinese history. Why there are no old records of the Dao in Tai Chi? I don't know really.
SNIP

If we accept that Taiji goes back to the 17th century (Chen) or to far more ancient history (other styles) then why would the dao not be taught? It was a very, very widespread weapon (and even had some use as late as the Korean War).

If you mean the dao form was a recent addition, you may be right: AFAIK, Chen Zhaopei invented the Chen style dao form in the 20th century: Prior to that, there were only "13 techniques." (The double dao form is an even more recent invention, I believe.)

The Yang dao form may thus be older than the Chen dao form, and (unlike the fist forms, which use similar sequences, techniques and even nomenclature) the Yang and Chen weapons forms are very different beasts indeed.

Perhaps Yang Luchan's weapons forms were adaptions of his previously learned MA, that he then "Taiji-ized" with the Taiji shenfa and slowed-down tempo, rather than per se material he learned in Chen Village...?

SNIP
Why there are no old records of the Dao in Tai Chi? I don't know really.
SNIP

Presumably because there are not many "old records" or Taiji, per se, anywhere, anyhow, anyway.

In fact: Do we have any reputable written records of Taiji that date back before the late 19th century...?

SNIP
The Dao is a heavy weapon which is mostly used very differently from most principles and methods found in Tai Chi. It's hard to incorporate with a Tai Chi shenfa.
SNIP

Why so? Its circular/centripedal usage is very appropriate for an MA based on circles or spirals, rather than straight lines and angles. One could argue (I would not, but...) that the dao fits better with Taiji's principles than the largely thrust-based jian.

SNIP
The Dao use evident movements, no very refined moves or tactics at all
SNIP

The jian was generally considered a more refined weapon than the dao, but so what? Anyone working in the military/security field in Old China (ie in the days before widespread adoption of firearms) had to be familiar or expert with both.

Also, the dao was a better weapon to use from horseback than the jian - for the same reason that scimitars, katana and the various European sabers, which were adopted much later, having been influenced by eastern curved weapons are excellent slashing weapons from horseback. And we know that the Yangs (or was it the Wus?) taught Manchu cavalry.

Moreover, the dao is also more suited for battlefield and melee combat than the fragile dao - which I see more like the European smallsword (ie a self-defence and dueling weapon, rather than a military weapon).

And even if one prefers to view historical Taiji as an art of hermits, monks, mystics (eg the Zhangsanfeng legend) and Beijing gentlemen than that of provincial militia and escorts (more of the Chen perspective) there is no question but that Yang Lu-chan and also the Wus taught the Manchu military - so had to be familiar with battlefield combat, rather than duels and streetfighting.

On the question of "refined" tactics:
Well there are big moves in Taiji, and small ones too; there are big frame styles and small frame styles. Some moves are refined, but many (perhaps most, in actual combat) are crude (for want of a better word).

[Bob]

I now recall that originally there was no Yang Dao Form but only 13 basic movements.