Free Sparring with Staff

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Free Sparring with Staff

Postby LaoDan on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:01 am

I would like to know what people think of the following video, and if forum members have ways to safely free spar with staffs:



I have learned Taiji staff solo practices, partner drills, and even a choreographed sparring form, but do not have experience with free sparring using the staff. Some of the partner work is almost identical with the pole/spear training shown in the following video:



It seems to me that practicing free sparring using a ‘sticky’ staff emphasis would be very compatible with my Taijiquan training, and would resemble what is often done with sword/jian free sparring, e.g.:



I realize that the above examples are analogous to push-hands rather than realistic free sparring. I would love to also have a way for controlled free sparring from non-contact using the staff (although safety concerns increase), analogous to what is shown for the sword/jian in the following video:



Any thoughts on safely free sparring using staffs without needing expensive protective gear would be greatly appreciated,
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:09 am

I believe the top vid is from a forum member who hasn't posted in a very long time whose (and it's killing me that I can't remember his nick now..it has like 2 words in it..something..something..bleh) name escapes me.

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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:11 am

Hah! I knew I was right. His nick was in the responses to the youtube vid- straydogmattheis

Anyhoo...I'm glad my memory isn't completely fuckered.

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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby middleway on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:17 am

last video is our very own GrahamB so sure he will chime in. :)
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:19 am

Hi Dan,

liked the fist clip.

why not just teach exercises similar to what is taught in ph to develop what ever skill sets your practice entails.
As for the sparing part, I think the amount of protection needed would depend on level of engagement and skill of the participants.
you might try looking at what Image http://www.sca.org/

what they use and do, although I dont participate in the activities I have seen a few events in my time and thought
that they where well run, provided a good way of understanding and using weaponry of past ages.

I have always thought that if CMA did something similar it would foster a better platform for displaying, using,
and understanding of CMA systems.

last video is our very own GrahamB so sure he will chime in.


another good clip, what I liked about it was the exploration useing movements and ideas directly practiced.
It would be good to read from "GrahamB" if he felt the practice changed any of the way he played his form movements,
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby Pandrews1982 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:37 am

Sticky staff/sword whatever - unrealistic. Extremely difficult to connect and stick to someone's weapon in a live situation and not particularly the most combat oriented option - i.e. just cut/hit the guy rather than trying to stick.

The drill graham is doing at the start is xing yi 5 elements jian destructive sequence partner drill. It's a set sequence to get you familiar with some of the cuts available to you within the five elements xing yi. Traditionally they wouldn't be circling/moving around as much, the angles of attack and avoidance would be smaller but its nice and smooth (set sequence, they know what's coming). They're also using light jian which are easy to whip about fairly quickly, you should get used to wielding heavier weapons too. All of our weapon work is usually done without protection, I've had some nasty bruises and bumps from heavy hickory training swords - took one to the head once which was not nice without a helmet.

Sparring with staff I would either gear up or go for sparring with a light slightly flexible staff (rattan/bamboo) and exclude thrusts to the head, though I would probably allow cutting strikes to the head with a light staff. I've sparred with heavier staffs and simply restricted shots to the head completely.

For gear a Kali/escrima helmet offers decent face protection, motocross body armour is hard and fairly cheap, not too restrictive. Lacrosse gloves or ice hockey gloves offer the best protection to the hands. Arms are fairly robust but if you want arm protection again motocross armour or mountain bike armour is good and that goes for shins and knees too. Padded shorts such as those used in rugby are okay for upper thighs and side of hips to some extent, a cup/box for the groin. I've not found anything to adequately protect the front of the hips and you do get a fair few strikes there when doing staff/spear sparring.

I'm looking at gearing up and doing a spear sparring workshop (using c. 8ft pine staff/spears bit lighter and shorter than we'd use solo) for my students in the UK this summer I may open to others but not organised anything yet. For spear sparring I am also adding a motorcycle neckbrace and a field hockey throat protector to the protection, as well as padding the end of the spear with memory foam. If you take a thrust to the head the helmet will save your face but even with a light spear it could give you whiplash or worse from your head being forced back. A shot to the throat without protection wouldn't be nice either.

BTW. for context: Our group actively practices xing yi weapons on a regular basis, we perform spear, horse chopping sword (zhanmadao), staff, broadsword, jian, hammers/mace, needles (Ci) and knife as well as occasionally breaking out the bows and doing some xing yi style archery. My students have been particularly focused on hammers recently and as yet I've not worked out a way to free spar with hammers in any safe format.

I reached the quarter final of the European Chinese Sword Tournament in 2011 and the semi-final in 2012, my student won the tournament (and beat me in the semi-final) in 2012. There hasn't been another European tournament since 2012.
Last edited by Pandrews1982 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:43 am

@pandrews1982

how do you feel about what the sca does http://www.sca.org/
do you have similar org. in the UK.

didnt note this
I reached the quarter final of the European Chinese Sword Tournament in 2011 and the semi-final in 2012, my student won the tournament (and beat me in the semi-final) in 2012. There hasn't been another European tournament since 2012.


cool, is it different then what the sca does ?
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby mrtoes on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:48 am

More staff fighting:


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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby LaoDan on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:15 am

Pandrews,

Thanks for the information. I was hoping for just mouth guards, goggles and groin cups for our free sparring, but I have used some lacrosse gear for sword sparring with reasonably realistic weight hickory swords (jian & dao, some historically accurate, others about 10-20% lighter). I also personally have a hockey helmet with full face plus goalie throat guard, lacrosse goalie shorts, etc., but I doubt that potential practice partners have similar protective gear. We all have rattan staffs and would likely continue using these in controlled free sparring.

Avoiding head contact is probably necessary without protective gear (although I would still wear the mouth guard and goggles in case of accidental contact).

Thanks for informing me that Graham’s drills were from Xingyi; they use many of the same techniques that I learned for Taijiquan, and his sparring looks very similar to what I would do with my controlled free sparring (for me, bruising is OK, but it is not worth risking serious injury).

I realize that, like push-hands training, the ‘sticky’ training with weapons is not realistic. But it does teach the same sensitivity and reading of energy at the point of contact abilities that are studied in weaponless PH. I actually start my staff classes briefly with PH since it is easier to read direct contact than it is to detect this through a weapon, although that is a goal when using weapons. With a staff it may actually be easier to feel the changes from one end to the other (yin on one end, yang on the other) in response to the partner’s attacks than it may be for some people to feel in interactions without the staff. I think that this is wonderfully illustrated in Straydog’s sparring.

Dan
Last edited by LaoDan on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby Pandrews1982 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:38 am

Hi Dan thanks for the context glad to know there are more like me that are crazy enough to try to really use weapons in our arts!

i think the application/movement Graham is doing at the end of the clip is from a Shaolin sword form but he could tell you more, I focus on xing yi.

windwalker

The European sword tournament was primarily organised by schools affiliated with Scott Rodell and his Chinese Sword League. http://www.swordleague.com/

The ruleset followed was that of the sword league. Heavy strike to torso/head was a kill (win), points for landing on other targets. Lose if exit the arena (we had a high platform in 2011). All methods/techniques permitted, punches, kicks, grappling. I knocked out my first opponent at the 2011 tournament with a blow to the top of his head (I caught his sword hand and hit him with my sword), I didn't realise he was out cold and was holding him up waiting for the judges decision when they announced I'd won I let go of him and he collapsed, he came round fairly quickly and was fine.

I think there are some highlight clips on youtube somewhere.

To be fair though I was a bit ropey in the 2011 tournament but have improved a lot since then. The judging in these tournaments is difficult and it is easy to be caught by a stray cut and get eliminated whatever your skill level. It's good fun though.

In the UK we have plenty of HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) groups doing western historical fighting with weapons. Most of it is recreated from manuals and texts. My teacher once said that we should go to a re-enactment and put up a sign with "enactment" or the "re" crossed out and then list our lineage from Ji Long Feng to the present day :)

There are now events like http://battleofthenations.org/ which involve one on one and team mele battles with armour and weaponry. I'd love to get involved in this kind of thing but don't have the money to buy the armour and don't want to divert time from other training and pursuits.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby Ciccio on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:12 am

Ciao

Pandrews1982 wrote:

"Sticky staff/sword whatever - unrealistic. Extremely difficult to connect and stick to someone's weapon in a live situation and not particularly the most combat oriented option - i.e. just cut/hit the guy rather than trying to stick."

IMHO

Too simplistic to reduce it in those terms.

Training is aimed always to coach the most difficult things otherwise there is no improvement.


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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:16 am

Hey, that's me!

Does this mean I'm internet-famous? ;D

Yes, the bit of playing about at the end is me looking at how you might drop a technique from Shaolin dragon sword into the flow- but I'm pretty sure the same technique is in Xingyi dragon as well, or one very very similar.

This 5 element pattern drill is, I think, one of the best things for learning how to actually apply 5 elements. Starts off basic as shown, but gets more free as you go on. Barehanded or weapon - both work the same.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:34 am

I think the free play in the early part of Graham's clip was more indicative of Chinese swordplay than any of the other clips. I saw a lot of cuts on both sides , but once his opponent made a good hit on the wrist, it became more of a clinic on technique. In the clip though, again you could see the evidence of how putting the footwork together with the upper body is the most important step in all of application practice, weapon or empty hand.
I guess the CMC clip was an exercise in extending through the weapon, I wasn't impressed with the movement though, I guess you would have to feel it to know the structure involved.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby Pandrews1982 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:22 am

Ciccio wrote:IMHO
Too simplistic to reduce it in those terms.
Training is aimed always to coach the most difficult things otherwise there is no improvement.


Hi Ciccio,

I didn't have a lot of time before so it was a simplistic answer. However I believe it's true.

Also I don't subscribe to your view of training. Training, if it is to be effective should not particularly aim to look at the most difficult things at all, it should aim to perfect those things which have a high percentage chance of working in a real situation.

What works in jian play? Cut to the wrist. This should be your number one training goal IMO for jian swordplay. First look at what methods can be used. Then play around with these and use in free sparing, identify which ones work best and why. Try to improve upon these and improve upon your technique - heavier cuts, cleaner cuts.

Improvement comes through increasing the percentage you can land good cuts on your opponent, through doing the simple things better, not through attempting to do the most difficult things. Once you're getting good results with the high percentage stuff start to do some lower percentage things to give you some variation and unpredictability.

Trying to intercept and stick to an opponent's weapon in a live situation is not realistic. Why? because they don't leave the weapon there. Similarly trying to catch someone's punch to wrist grab is not a high percentage movement in barehand, people withdraw their arms in barehand and in weapon work - why? because you are vulnerable, it is silly to leave your arm out as a target, especially in weapon work where the arm is one of the main targets. So much that is taught about bridging and catching and sticking to someone's arm or weapon simply doesn't happen when sparring because the opponent doesn't leave themselves extended - you have nothing to stick to because they withdraw. The options are to withdraw yourself from their cut, slip the cut and counter or follow as they withdraw.

Also if you stick to their weapon how do you cut them? You have to disengage to make a cut, therefore why engage at all? Simply cut. If you need to disrupt the incoming attack a parry may be required but this isn't sticking.

Sticky sword/spear/staff has little relation to real weapon sparring as you are working in a different range too, usually most people doing sticky work are much closer than you would normally be when engaging in sparring and this gives a false sense of distancing and positioning.

I've done this with people barehand before who've asked me to push hands, we push hands for a bit then I say, how about we start disengaged, and then I actively try not to allow them to engage again, result is most people get a rain of beng quans straight into their chest because they can't engage and stick to incoming strikes. Same in swordwork and spear work etc.
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Re: Free Sparring with Staff

Postby fuga on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:03 am

Another option for working with staff and spear in a full contact setting.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/QjAkbQb6axU?t=5m30s[/youtube]

The best part is early on when the audience realizes the range of the weapon and clear the front row seats.
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