Eli Montaigue story so far

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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby RobP2 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:46 am

hodmeist wrote:
Hammers? Have we met? ;D
COYI
HA HA ....spot on Rob, originally a Plaistow boy, now leaving in leafy Buckinghamshire.....


Lol, ditto Forest Gate to rural Beds ;D
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby Franklin on Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:15 am

what i have seen of chen pan ling form (from the textbook that was translated)
it seems like pretty standard yang
with wu style stork cools wing and repulse monkey


personally i think this mix mash might have been more common before the "styles" were standardized
i took a seminar from Chao Li Chi , one of Share K Lew's friends (he told me his friend's taiji was very good)
he had learned from his mother.. probably back in the 1920's or 30's
and his form as a cool mix of yang and wu elements..
it was very interesting
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:50 pm

I just tried to find it but there is a couple of tapes of hung I hsiangs son doing the cpl form
If someone can point you too it you will see the difference to yang
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:17 pm

Just came across CPL son
http://youtu.be/51iz95XL9H4
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby Daniel-san on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:07 pm

Franklin wrote:
Bob wrote:Northern Mantis - didn't see that last line of your post before I posted. Think alike.

I also have his pao chui book and it does not resemble anything I have every seen in Chen's taijiquan.


if i remember correctly (from looking at it years and years ago)
the pao chui is the yang two man set...


I thought Erle referred to the 2 man set as San Shou.

Did he also have a separate (solo) Pao Chui form?
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby AJG on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:34 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Just came across CPL son
http://youtu.be/51iz95XL9H4



Wow and people are critical of erle. Didn't like that clip at all, especially the hsing I.
Just my opinion
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:50 am

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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby AJG on Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:08 am

Just goes to show that just because your dad was a master doesn't automatically make the son one.
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby hodmeist on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:33 am

I thought Erle referred to the 2 man set as San Shou.

Did he also have a separate (solo) Pao Chui form?


The solo Pao Chui form is just the 2 man San Sau set but both A and B sides done together as one solo form.
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby Daniel-san on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:54 am

hodmeist wrote:The solo Pao Chui form is just the 2 man San Sau set but both A and B sides done together as one solo form.


OK, understood, thanks.

The first TCC form I learnt was the same form Earl taught, but from a different source in London


George, given that Erle's 1st videotape of the Old Yang form was probably produced around 1984-85, is it possible that your teacher had purchased Erle's tape and taught him/herself from that?

I was also told that CPL had a student / disciple who had taught in Japan and his name was very similar sounding to the given name of Earls teacher/ given by Earl. Earl could have conceivably given this teacher the background he thought would be most beneficial and changed the name slightly..


Erle claimed that the name of his teacher was Chang Yiu-chun.

Wang Shu-chin is said to have learnt his tai chi from Chen Pan-ling. As such, Wang's tai chi is almost identical to that of Chen Pan-ling with perhaps a few minor changes.

Of course, Wang Shu-chin spent a lot of time teaching in Japan.

Many considered Wang's best student to be Zhang Yi Cheng. I would guess that the Wade-Giles version of the name would be something like Chang I-Cheng.

As Wang's best student it is quite likely that Zhang Yi Cheng accompanied Wang on many of his visits to Japan.

Zhang later moved to live in Los Angeles. See the Pa Kua Chang Journal, Vol 5, No 6.
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby RobP2 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:43 am

This is what I learnt as the San Sau set



I also learnt this "fighting form" which I think was via Chu King Hung



I only did a little of the EM Pao Chui, it was more in line with the Two Person set I learned from the Boston Chu's

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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby cloudz on Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:51 am

Daniel-san wrote:George, given that Erle's 1st videotape of the Old Yang form was probably produced around 1984-85, is it possible that your teacher had purchased Erle's tape and taught him/herself from that?


Sure, anything's possible and this is definitely something I have considered and don't really rule out. A classmate of mine at the time knew Paul Brecker who was teaching in a nearby area of North London. This classmate corresponded a little with Earl and Earl said pretty much what you have said - that it came from him.

Other people in London I am now aware learnt the form too, from Earl I guess - eg. Jim Uglow and Rob P.

As for the teacher/ group I learnt from, the information told to me was that the form was passed on to my teachers teacher sometime in late 70's if I recall in London and the name of this teacher was given as "K Lew".

Now there are a few reasons that (at the time) it was difficult to maintain that the school I learnt from simply ripped the form off Earl. Quickly; the form whilst being largely the same choreography and movements wasn't really performed the way Earl did it - I got his tape to check it out. The teacher/ school taught a deep set of applications including dim mak that complimented the form. So they would have somehow had to get that from his tapes too ? And on top of this there was another form the teacher practiced which the school called "the masters form" (ok, I know it's quite funny).. I saw my teacher do this form and whilst you could see it was connected, it was not the same thing and contained a number of different postures and movements in it. He would also perform it extremely fast, or at least did so when I was watching.

He was extremely good and moved nothing like Earl. Now I have seen Paul Brecker,for example, perform this form and probably the best example I have seen on Video is our own Rob P. They have a different flavour of performance - but I suppose that's not conclusive. I'm inclined to think it didn't come from the same source - Earl. However like I said at the outset - I cannot possibly know for sure. I can only go by what I saw and what I was told and take it at face value.. I definitely thought it possible, but what I saw from them it seemed unlikely at the time. However I can't and don't really rule it out.


Erle claimed that the name of his teacher was Chang Yiu-chun.

Wang Shu-chin is said to have learnt his tai chi from Chen Pan-ling. As such, Wang's tai chi is almost identical to that of Chen Pan-ling with perhaps a few minor changes.

Of course, Wang Shu-chin spent a lot of time teaching in Japan.

Many considered Wang's best student to be Zhang Yi Cheng. I would guess that the Wade-Giles version of the name would be something like Chang I-Cheng.

As Wang's best student it is quite likely that Zhang Yi Cheng accompanied Wang on many of his visits to Japan.

Zhang later moved to live in Los Angeles. See the Pa Kua Chang Journal, Vol 5, No 6.


Yes I think (pretty sure come to think of it) Chang I Cheng was the name I was referenced and it is extremely similar to Chang Yiu Cheng. Just coincidence?
Given that our school also practiced Japanese martial arts at the time I always wondered if there was some connection to Japan, before I heard of this specific guy.

To be honest the whole thing I found weird and I suppose was one of the contributory factors for me leaving that school and teacher, but not the only factor. In the end I didn't really know what to think about their lineage / history.

I guess it is possible also that this person Chang I Chung had taught others and in some way their system or parts of it found their way to my teacher, but I cannot be sure about anything in the whole dirty business.. I reckon it's a good form, for sure, wherever it came from. In the end it's the practice that matters more than the origins. I was driven by curiosity and the mystery I encountered was more than a little frustrating, but also had the effect of making me more curious. Playing "detective" was only fun for a little while..lol. I am well over it now and left the question marks behind - you have to move on, and was happy to find the connection to orthodox CPL which I appreciated much more when I started to practice it.

What is interesting is that Franklin posted of a guy in the US "Share K Lew" - I was told the name "K Lew". Coincidence ?
Was he from a similar part of the US. Whilst I think I had heard of Share K Lew before, I didn't really know what to make of it. I still don't really, it could just be totally unrelated but you never know I suppose.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:43 am, edited 6 times in total.
Regards
George

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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:39 am

I think u will find share k lew has a Choy lei fut background threw his famous uncle
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby hodmeist on Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:43 am

This is what I learnt as the San Sau set
Erle called this form "small san sau" and believed it came down from Yang Sau Chung. The "two man" form he named "large san sau" when trained with a partner but named it "Pau Chui" when practiced solo.
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Re: Eli Montaigue story so far

Postby Bill on Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:45 am

wayne hansen wrote:I think u will find share k lew has a Choy lei fut background threw his famous uncle


Sifu Lew learned both Tao-ga and Choi Li Fut at the Taoist Monastery. For the ten years that he lived with his uncle, Lau Bun ( Lew Ben), he said he did not learn forms from his uncle but learned the 'secret things'.
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