Nothing Magical

[Ian]

CZQ is often cited on this forum as a prime example of an internal fighter.

When you add a bit of resistance, though, it begins to look pretty standard (and yes, I'm aware the other gent is also a Chen taiji guy).



IMO these displays of the smaller man vs. larger opponents look far more convincing:







The problem is, a lot of internal guys view their internal power as a panacea, and get lazy on technique and weekly pressure testing. IMO if you leave the latter out, it doesn't matter if you're an 'internal' or 'external' guy, you're never going to develop significant skill.

This may be obvious to most, but it's clearly not obvious to all.

Thoughts?

[leftwose]

Thats the difficulty, innit?

I only watched the first 2, but CZQ clip was far more interesting to me than the Sumo clip. Yes, white sumo dude was good and interesting, but the clip was edited to make that clear. CZQ clip was a class, was a moment when big dude learned something.

I think the important moment in that clip is the very end. Big Dude is gassed, done. he wants to stop and watch someone else get tossed in order to understand WTF just happened. CZQ is ready to go play with the next dude. Efficacy. Neijiaquan.

Sumo clip was very interesting in a technical sense, but it did not help me understand HOW or WHY those throws happened. Is a simple matter of editing.

.conal.

[kenneth fish]

Looking at the first video I found myself thinking "cripes, a shuaijiao guy would be throwing the bigger guy all over the mat".

[Ian]

Yes, white sumo dude was good and interesting, but the clip was edited to make that clear.

...Is a simple matter of editing.

How was the video edited to make him look good? It was a compilation of full matches in which he won...

Big Dude is gassed, done. he wants to stop and watch someone else get tossed in order to understand WTF just happened.

I think you're inferring a lot from very little evidence.

Sumo clip was very interesting in a technical sense, but it did not help me understand HOW or WHY those throws happened.

Then learn to see things faster, or use the settings to slow the video down, or identify and become aware of more components that contribute to success in a fight.

The fact that you don't understand it has no bearing on the skill required to produce those outcomes.

Looking at the first video I found myself thinking "cripes, a shuaijiao guy would be throwing the bigger guy all over the mat".

I agree.

[dspyrido]

The problem is, a lot of internal guys view their internal power as a panacea, and get lazy on technique and weekly pressure testing. IMO if you leave the latter out, it doesn't matter if you're an 'internal' or 'external' guy, you're never going to develop significant skill.

This may be obvious to most, but it's clearly not obvious to all.

Thoughts?

But CZQ is pressure testing (in a softish push hands kind of way) which is a good thing right? Under moderate pressure testing he does send his opponent flying who looks to be double his weight so I would say CZQ is doing a good job of handling the weight difference.

So are you referring to there not being enough pressure in the format they chose, that the weakness is in the format (ie not going for the legs) or that CZQ is falling back to throwing techniques which he could do a better job if he focused on better setup of throws? Or is not about CZQ but about the differences in the formats of testing and the intensity between the different videos?

[Bao]

I liked the Sumo clip. It's very different form the CZQ. The small Sumo guy is constantly shifting his angle in accordance with the bigger guy. What I thought was strange with the CZQ vid is that he is too stationary. To quite the classics: "If my opponent move slightly, I move first" and "If my opponent seems close, I will be closer". CZQ let his bigger opponent target his "yi" and exposes his center and balance. Very strange for a High level TJQ guy ... IMHO. Maybe is a bit too cocky or he allready feels that he has an advantage?

Looking at the first video I found myself thinking "cripes, a shuaijiao guy would be throwing the bigger guy all over the mat".

+1

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Looking at the first video I found myself thinking "cripes, a shuaijiao guy would be throwing the bigger guy all over the mat".

I agree.
SNIP

I am a bit surprised by this comments: it is pretty clear to me that if Chen wanted to send the guy flying hither and yon from the get go, he could.

Moreover, he does not look as badass as the guys in the other clips for a simple reason: They are compilations of combat from world-class competition, Chen is lightly sparring with a student in a seminar.

In these seminars, Chen literally spars with everyone in the room. (In the PH format, admittedly). He is not there to blitz anyone. He is always very relaxed, always let's the other guy make the first move, often lets you put him at a disadvantage, etc. He has not qualms about being moved a step here, a step there by his opponent, although this would lose him tourneys in the pushy-pushy PH format that used to be used in the USA. If you watch him against a smaller, faster opponent than this, he is correspondingly livelier: he matches himself to you.

And Chen does this stuff for hours on end. At seminars he will take on everyone in the room for as long as they like. (At the end, you see him gesturing to bring the next one on.) There are not many IMA teachers who do this.

Last time I played with him (in 2006) I asked him to show me some power with his shoulder strike. (Risk free: It's a pretty blunt weapon.) He agreed and said he would give me three bumps, upping the oomph factor each time. First one, nothing much. (Looking back, I think he was just showing me how to use it to create space). I must have looked unimpressed as he smiled (rare) and - bang! - sent me flying about 20 feet and one my arse. (I back breakfalled) He then asked me if I wanted to try a "full-power strike." I declined, and left a believer in shoulder strikes.

The OP is correct, this is "nothing magical," it is just applied MA in a specific, restricted format. I am full of respect for young Chen, but in his seminar tours, he encounters Taiji peeps rather than rasslers and judoka. Which is probably a disappointment for him: As you can see here, he likes to scrap and Taiji people are not really much cop at that as a general rule.

[wushutiger]

CZQ is doing Chen Competition Style Push Hands Practice in this video. It has its own permitted methods, and those which are not. For example holding onto the clothing is not allowed, and neither is grabbing the legs or the head. So its a little bit irrelevant to compare it to a shuai jiao practice due to this.

[Ba-men]

Looking at the first video I found myself thinking "cripes, a shuaijiao guy would be throwing the bigger guy all over the mat".

Although.. Every video I've seen of this guy he displayed some serious technique, but I agree Ken. The guy is really good at what he does. "Really good!" but a Free style wrestler, decent Judoka or a decent Shuaijiao practitioner wouldn't give him access to his center... as the big guy does time and time again... (seems every video I've seen with this guy he's putting a clinic with a beef cake... getting under thier center & throwing them this way and that...and getting under his opponent's center in the exact same way everytime)

Every wrestler & MMA & jit/judo practitioner I know would take the single leg pick "MR Chen style" is just asking to have done ... and once he changes his game up to prevent that..... a lot of what he's doing in the vid(s) goes out the window.... Throw in strikes ...& he can for get about 90% of his game.


Yet all that said... still a fine display of technique!! and impressive and of value to watch. (some nice technique to cop)

[windwalker]

The problem is, a lot of internal guys view their internal power as a panacea, and get lazy on technique and weekly pressure testing. IMO if you leave the latter out, it doesn't matter if you're an 'internal' or 'external' guy, you're never going to develop significant skill.

This may be obvious to most, but it's clearly not obvious to all.

Thoughts?

It seems that in each case the "significant skill" is relative to the event.
Your comparing a seminar "demo" with contest that do require a special type of "significant skill"

It might be better to show what is different between what many talk about when they mention or use the word "IP" or "internal"
Some here who give seminars promote what they call "IP" which many say who've been to the seminars thats its
quite different. Unfortunately there are no clips posted to see what is different.

Equating what is shown in the clip as a "internal" skill set, is it? what makes it so?
It would seem that unless one had "internal skill" how would they be able to judge it?

Most who have posted only mention fighting skill or tech,,,is it the same?

Interesting thing is that in most clips posted of what some might feel is internal skill they get dismissed, by others who dont seem to
have found anyone with said skills,,,and yet there are seminars that they can go see and feel

Of clips shown as examples of "internal" work being "shown" they are often dismissed, maybe its better not to show them.

[Bao]

CZQ is doing Chen Competition Style Push Hands Practice in this video. It has its own permitted methods, and those which are not. For example holding onto the clothing is not allowed, and neither is grabbing the legs or the head. So its a little bit irrelevant to compare it to a shuai jiao practice due to this.

IMHO, it's more a question about timing, basic fighting strategy and common sense.

. The guy is really good at what he does. "Really good!" but a Free style wrestler, decent Judoka or a decent Shuaijiao practitioner wouldn't give him access to his center... as the big guy does time and time again...

Yes, this is what I mean. But CZQ does the same and this is the problem, IMHO.

I am a bit surprised by this comments: it is pretty clear to me that if Chen wanted to send the guy flying hither and yon from the get go, he could.

I don't understand why this should be obvious. He was almost dragged to the ground. The opponent affected his center and gave him a hard time.

[Bhassler]

CZQ is a bit of a controversial figure on RSF, so I wouldn't hold him up as an agreed upon example of good IMA, although personally I have a ton of respect for the man and think he's legit. I was more impressed with his balance and ability to remain physically neutral than his power. It looks like he's blasting guys to the moon sometimes, but when he did it to me it was accomplished by exquisite timing and angles, and not power. I also can confirm that he tends to play whatever game his opponent wants to play, and to go at a level just a little bit higher than where is opponent is at, at least in pubic.

I did talk to a shuai-jiao guy who is very muscular, weighs in at a little over 200 lbs, and used to compete in shuai-jiao competitions (I'm sure if there were some around here he still would). He said that in the hour he spent with CZQ, he's never been handled so easily by such a small person. Said shuai-jiao person has also trained with Luo Dexiu and John Wang, as well as some less well known other masters, so there is an outside chance his opinion might at least be based on... something.

So I agree the videos are not all comparing apples to apples. That said, I find the comments at the end of the OP to be spot on in many respects. I think it's a challenging problem. There are logistical, pedagogical, and practical matters that come into play. DRILLS by Rory Miller has a good discussion of some of this.

That said, I'm not sure the sport competitive format is the most productive way to train and test non-sport oriented arts. I think it has a ton of value, but I don't know that regularly training with that kind of intensity in such a way that no one gets hurt is the best bang for the buck if what you want to learn is how to disable your opponents.

[wiesiek]

styles don`t fight, man do
CZQ show nuf skillz to neutralize quite easy bigger guy in the training environment,
Czech has the class

..."I'm not sure the sport competitive format is the most productive way to train and test non-sport oriented arts...."

maybe not,
but
we didn`t develop nothing better yet,
reality check -and goodbaysunshine for someone

[wayne hansen]

At no time does the big guy use the fact he is a big guy to his advantage
He plays chens game all the way
Bent over,small selective pushes,never lifts
If that is the pace and style of the pushing of course he can push all day if he is moderately fit
He should be as a professional athlete

[Bhassler]

If that is the pace and style of the pushing of course he can push all day if he is moderately fit
He should be as a professional athlete

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