Nothing Magical

[middleway]

Chris, do you think the IMAs could be improved with this mentality?

Honestly i think its dependent on the focus.

Some people train IMA because they love the culture, tradition, heritage of the systems. For these people the information there may not be applicable. It is more important that the information is 'correct' in terms of its adherence with the tradition. This is fine for those who want that.

For IMAists where combat is the first goal above all others, yes i think that the mentality could be useful. Of course even mindsets like this are ultimately a trade off with one area of focus taking away from other, equally relevant areas.

cheers.

[middleway]

I'd say he doesn't show the technique or game of the top level athletes linked in this thread. There again he's from a much smaller pool

I would say that we can judge the merit of the training system based on its elite exponents and the observation of their comparable skill. He is from a much smaller pool, but is training to a similar degree of intensity if the tales are too be believed. With this in mind, if the Chen Tai Chi system is a method of unique body skill and application he, of anyone, should be demonstrating it. We can look at the videos posted here as fair comparisons IMO.

If pool size is important as some have alluded too here, then can we say that for ANY system to really produce elite level fighters/grapplers/etc it needs to have a robust form of non-cooperative testing and some level of either competition or cross exchange with non school students?

So then the question (bringing it back to this community) becomes, how many of you out there training for high level skills are utilizing a robust form of non-compliant training, competition or cross exchange sparring with non school students?

Thanks
Chris.

[johnwang]

Am I the only one here who thinks chen taiji is basically Shuai jiao ?

It's not SC. A SC guy will use his leg to sweep, cut, hook, spring, twist, scoop, lift, bite, break, ... None of those "leg skill" are used in that clip.

[Bao]

...the IMAs could be improved with this mentality?
Tokui waza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A52to0cJg9g

Don't understand what you refer to as "mentality" or what the mind-set should be.

The clip seems to be about finding a few good basic methods and stick with what works. Is that a mentality or mind set?

Sticking with the basics and a few basic methods... I thought that was quite IMA-ish.

Everything in XY is variations on five "shapes" or basic fists.

Everything in BGZ are variations on a few changes.

Everything in TJQ are different ways to use a few "shapes".

Until you know how to always stick to the basics and the most fundamental things of these arts, IMHO, you can not really call yourself an advanced practitioner.

[mrtoes]

Hi Chris,

Well since no-one else has replied:

I would say that we can judge the merit of the training system based on its elite exponents and the observation of their comparable skill. He is from a much smaller pool, but is training to a similar degree of intensity if the tales are too be believed. With this in mind, if the Chen Tai Chi system is a method of unique body skill and application he, of anyone, should be demonstrating it. We can look at the videos posted here as fair comparisons IMO.

Fair enough.

If pool size is important as some have alluded too here, then can we say that for ANY system to really produce elite level fighters/grapplers/etc it needs to have a robust form of non-cooperative testing and some level of either competition or cross exchange with non school students?

Absolutely!

So then the question (bringing it back to this community) becomes, how many of you out there training for high level skills are utilizing a robust form of non-compliant training, competition or cross exchange sparring with non school students?

More so than most, which isn't hard (it helps that everyone I train with is "non school") but not robust enough to hold my own against people doing serious and dedicated fight training. That reflects my priorities.

In the realm of sports combat - this may be contentious - I am not aware of any school who is training true high level skills who applies them in competition, even those who have both on their curriculum. Those schools that produce good sport combat fighters do not emphasise high level skills as part of this training - they focus on the practical side of fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

With that in mind, may I ask whether as one of the few people I know both chasing high level internal skills and being highly focused on fight training, whether you find that the time spent training those skills is worth investing in from a pure fight perspective (gives you an edge that you wouldn't get by doing more conditioning/padwork/sparring whatever)

If so and bringing it back to the original question (what we can learn from watching these respective fighters), do you think that the way you move and the effect on your opponent is visibly different to an external observer compared to if you were only engaging in conventional training?

Thanks,

Matthew

[middleway]

Hi Matt,

I did pen a large response but my browser died and it was lost!! I think i have caught everything i said originally.

In the realm of sports combat - this may be contentious - I am not aware of any school who is training true high level skills who applies them in competition, even those who have both on their curriculum. Those schools that produce good sport combat fighters do not emphasise high level skills as part of this training - they focus on the practical side of fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

This is an understandable viewpoint, However there is a problem with this statement for me. That is the in the use of the term 'True High Level Skill'. For me this is related to the combination of mobility, fighting capacity in non compliant environment, health, mental stability and unique body usage. Without any one of those factors for me, the person will not have what I personally define as high level skill. So it truly is a question of perspective and personal outlook. Agreement on what high level skill is is the first real stumbling block.

If someone has great IP but is triangled by a BJJ blue belt, or destroyed by a 1 year MMA fighter in simple sparring then i do not consider them to have high level skill. If someone can fight but is unhealthy and overweight I do not consider them to have high level skill. If someone has IP levels of ancient tales but cannot bend over to tie their shoe laces I do not consider them to have high level skill. I simply consider them all to have developed one part of a multi-faceted whole. This, however, is again my viewpoint on what 'High Level Skill' constitutes.

With that in mind, may I ask whether as one of the few people I know both chasing high level internal skills and being highly focused on fight training, whether you find that the time spent training those skills is worth investing in from a pure fight perspective (gives you an edge that you wouldn't get by doing more conditioning/padwork/sparring whatever)

With the above considered there are two answers to this question. 1 from my personal research POV and one from my position as a coach.

Internal training is valuable to me. But i emphasis 'to me' here. IMO it will and does give me an edge in testing environments, I can see where it will lead eventually when framed within the context of the rest of my goals. Personally i do not 'try to apply' Internal Skills in my competition, sparring, rolling etc. This is important to me. I am trying at the moment to ingrain attributes that are ever present, not ones that can only be useful within the context of very specific pushing drills, when I have to 'switch on' or when i am really thinking about them.

The proving ground of the MMA ring, BJJ mat or the competition circuits are the furnace in which my version of internal skills are forged. I ingrain them in my body solo or in specific methodologies with a 'pusher' then ever day of the week in the evenings i test them in sparring. The interesting result of this research is that i have been asked to teach at groups headed by people also cross training with us. High level Karate-ka, Kickboxing gyms, and by pro MMA athletes. Their reason for asking me to help them is that i simply feel different to them. In stand up exchanges I am hard to throw and they are offbalance, in ground work i feel un-naturally heavy and able to pin without much apparent force. I have never told them what i am doing or what else i am training beyond ... 'I do a bit of tai chi in the morning and i think that helps'. I generally don't want them to know!

The key here is that i get true, honest feedback. I have the ability to refine my method because others who don't know what i am up too at all, will tell me when its truly feels unique ... equally when it doesn't work, when my mind is overtaken, my body overwhelmed and my intent diminished by exhaustion I find new deficiencies to address.

So onto a coaching perspective ... I think that there is a difficulty in a catch all approach or the 'does it give an edge' Idea. The Idea of the traditional training syllabus is one that i have essentially rejected. Each student is unique, will have their own body problems that need resolving, their own Goals and objectives that need defining and their own capability ceiling that needs raising. In general we can say that almost all students i see have the same general issues initially (Kwa tightness, lumbar or thoracic mobility issues, knee misalignment, ankle tension, scapular location, I am personally still working some of these out in my own body etc) so an initial prescription of training is possible. But it then needs to become more individualized IMO.

So does it give an edge? I think the only real and possible answer to that is 'it depends...'

Hope that answers the questions bro.

Chris.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
I don't understand why this should be obvious. He was almost dragged to the ground. The opponent affected his center and gave him a hard time.
SNIP

You see him bet moved and dragged all the time - he is a little guy. The point is, you don't see him getting dragged down or thrown down. As for him being given a "hard time:" I disagree. To my eye (and I have grappled with him) he is only going at about 20 percent speed.

As I have said here before, the ability in IMA to be "immovable" is, IMHO, a pretty useless skill to train, though there are many Taiji schools that do standing PH that seem to seek this ability. And yes indeed, Chen probably would not win in those kind of tourneys.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
The one successful throw was a tai otoshi, which is amazing for taiji guys who haven't been exposed to enough throwing styles. If a tai otoshi is amazing, this must be mind-blowing, right?
SNIP

Who said it is amazing? A hip throw - call it cross buttock, call it taiotoshi - is standard in all grappling formats.

It is one of the bread and butter techniques taught in PH in Chenjiagou. (IIRC, it was the second technique I was taught.) And to answer what John Wang's criticism, they also augment it with a rear leg sweep a la SC.

SNIP
Why is this stuff so readily dismissed on RSF?
SNIP

It is not. I love watching MMA. But it is not what I do, personally.

SNIP
Well, the second video shows Sergey Beloglazov (2 time Olympion, 6 time world champion) demonstrating techniques. In other words, the lowest possible intensity.
From everything you've seen of CZQ, who's throws look more convincing to you - CZQ's or Beloglazov's?
SNIP

TBH, the answer is "probably Belagonov" but quite frankly, I don't know: I have never seen Chen going all out. (I would like to).

All I have seen him do is play with people, taking it every easy and handling them pretty well like children. BHassler notes elsewhere on this thread that grapplers with solid experience said how easily they were handled by wee little Chen.

And of course, one of the points of IMA is to operate with maximum effect, minimum effort, and Chen does that. Which is why he is able to do this stuff for, literally, hours on end.

Anyway, here is the issue: Beloglanov is competing in an Olympic sport. Chen is doing Taiji.

You don't need me to tell you that rasslers are, on the whole, badasses who can fight, and Taiji peeps, on the whole, are wimps who cannot. Begolanov is a big fish in a huge pond, Chen is a big fish in a pretty tiny one.

SNIP
Please don't say Beloglazov is an Olympian, which accounts for his technical superiority... CZQ trains as hard as a pro athlete, and is at the very top of his game, just as Beloglazov was at the very top of his game. We're comparing apex to apex, albeit similar-but-not-the-same styles and rule sets.
SNIP

Why not say, "He is an Olympian?" That point is utterly germane. The Olympics ARE the apex of sporting competition.

And this is the point - which has nothing to do with Chen of Begolanov or the Olympics, it is a basic rule in all spheres of human activity - but is study, sport or war:
"Competition makes things better."

Olympic rassling competition is simply more competitive than Chinese PH competitions. Ergo...

SNIP
Can we agree that it's not JUST the format - competition vs. demonstration vs. technical instruction - that accounts for the difference in level?
SNIP

It is not JUST the format - there are issues of natural talent, there are issue with level of competition, there are issues with training resources, there are issues of ruleset, there are issues of style, etc,etc.

Even so, I can't agree with your overall contention, no. World class competitive athletes are going to be better at what they do than those who are not.

For this reason (as I have said here, many a time) I think most competing MMA athletes would annihilate most TMArists who train for "reality" but never actually compete, nine times out of ten.

[Bhassler]

Hi Matt,

I did pen a large response but my browser died and it was lost!! I think i have caught everything i said originally.

In the realm of sports combat - this may be contentious - I am not aware of any school who is training true high level skills who applies them in competition, even those who have both on their curriculum. Those schools that produce good sport combat fighters do not emphasise high level skills as part of this training - they focus on the practical side of fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

This is an understandable viewpoint, However there is a problem with this statement for me. That is the in the use of the term 'True High Level Skill'. For me this is related to the combination of mobility, fighting capacity in non compliant environment, health, mental stability and unique body usage. Without any one of those factors for me, the person will not have what I personally define as high level skill. So it truly is a question of perspective and personal outlook. Agreement on what high level skill is is the first real stumbling block.

If someone has great IP but is triangled by a BJJ blue belt, or destroyed by a 1 year MMA fighter in simple sparring then i do not consider them to have high level skill. If someone can fight but is unhealthy and overweight I do not consider them to have high level skill. If someone has IP levels of ancient tales but cannot bend over to tie their shoe laces I do not consider them to have high level skill. I simply consider them all to have developed one part of a multi-faceted whole. This, however, is again my viewpoint on what 'High Level Skill' constitutes.

With that in mind, may I ask whether as one of the few people I know both chasing high level internal skills and being highly focused on fight training, whether you find that the time spent training those skills is worth investing in from a pure fight perspective (gives you an edge that you wouldn't get by doing more conditioning/padwork/sparring whatever)

With the above considered there are two answers to this question. 1 from my personal research POV and one from my position as a coach.

Internal training is valuable to me. But i emphasis 'to me' here. IMO it will and does give me an edge in testing environments, I can see where it will lead eventually when framed within the context of the rest of my goals. Personally i do not 'try to apply' Internal Skills in my competition, sparring, rolling etc. This is important to me. I am trying at the moment to ingrain attributes that are ever present, not ones that can only be useful within the context of very specific pushing drills, when I have to 'switch on' or when i am really thinking about them.

The proving ground of the MMA ring, BJJ mat or the competition circuits are the furnace in which my version of internal skills are forged. I ingrain them in my body solo or in specific methodologies with a 'pusher' then ever day of the week in the evenings i test them in sparring. The interesting result of this research is that i have been asked to teach at groups headed by people also cross training with us. High level Karate-ka, Kickboxing gyms, and by pro MMA athletes. Their reason for asking me to help them is that i simply feel different to them. In stand up exchanges I am hard to throw and they are offbalance, in ground work i feel un-naturally heavy and able to pin without much apparent force. I have never told them what i am doing or what else i am training beyond ... 'I do a bit of tai chi in the morning and i think that helps'. I generally don't want them to know!

The key here is that i get true, honest feedback. I have the ability to refine my method because others who don't know what i am up too at all, will tell me when its truly feels unique ... equally when it doesn't work, when my mind is overtaken, my body overwhelmed and my intent diminished by exhaustion I find new deficiencies to address.

So onto a coaching perspective ... I think that there is a difficulty in a catch all approach or the 'does it give an edge' Idea. The Idea of the traditional training syllabus is one that i have essentially rejected. Each student is unique, will have their own body problems that need resolving, their own Goals and objectives that need defining and their own capability ceiling that needs raising. In general we can say that almost all students i see have the same general issues initially (Kwa tightness, lumbar or thoracic mobility issues, knee misalignment, ankle tension, scapular location, I am personally still working some of these out in my own body etc) so an initial prescription of training is possible. But it then needs to become more individualized IMO.

So does it give an edge? I think the only real and possible answer to that is 'it depends...'

Hope that answers the questions bro.

Chris.

Great post.

[wayne hansen]

Well written and I concur
I grew up amoungst street fighters and rugby league players in one of Sydney's rougher areas
Not being great at either I bowed to those of higher skill
Taking up martial arts took me away from both
Most of those I knew from those days are either dead or unhealthy
Not all some took up exercise that served them well
The battles we fight in life are mostly not martial they are much more important
Your training shoul address such things
It will not guarantee a long healthy life
You may get hit by a bus tomorrow
However it shoul aim towards it

[mrtoes]

Hi Chris,

Excellent post - thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply. That more than answers my questions.

Matthew

[leifeng]

There is nothing magical about Chen Taiji. At the highest levels it's all about refined body mechanics to attack the center of the opponent and protect your center be it in grappling or striking. The body of a high level Chen is like a series of gears and springs capable of moving to different directions resulting in a spiral force unbalancing the opponents center when they touch. SC, Judo, ... all have their own technical ways of unbalancing the opponent but these are different arts. There is no way someone can imitate the tricky spirals happening in the body of an IMArtist without training the internal methods for years. I'm not saying which one is better, just saying that they are different because obviously no matter what the style is fighting experience under pressure is more important in making a better fighter.

[wiesiek]

..."experience under pressure is more important in making a better fighter..."
yes,
and I would add -good basic body training ,
so
competitions /doesn`t matter what the format/ are the only way to polish the fighter and not get him killed during the process

[Bao]

..."experience under pressure is more important in making a better fighter..."
yes,
and I would add -good basic body training ,
so

If you are not comfortable with fighting, how could you be able to use any kind of body method as you fight?

IMHO the fighting mentality or experience must come first, then the body method and or technical skill. This is why no martial art can teach someone to fight who lacks the mental capacity to be calm in a real fighting situation.

[wiesiek]

there are >natural born killers< in the space around
but
we poor mortals must have the training 1st