Huang Style push hands

[windwalker]

Small joke for you Windy: have you thought about changing your name to Windytalker.

hahah

I would say more but

[Bhassler]

its not that one can not push him over, its that there really feels like there is nothing to push against

This is very much what CZQ feels like.

[amor]

case in point, my own teacher can not be pushed if he chooses not to be, its not that one can not push him over, its that there really feels like there is nothing to push against
he splits the intent. Not the force. the force never really reaches him as hes dealt with the intent before the force has arrived.
It's different, the reaction among some is to try again this time with more speed, power ect....they kind of miss the point the teacher at this point either dosnt push, stops or sends them flying back if he is sure about their skill to handle it

Interesting, would you be able to explain more about the aspect of splitting intent (which I take to mean splitting of force) without feeling for force? Are you saying your teacher can 'read' his opponents mind before the opponent has a chance to apply force such as a push, grab, punch, throw etc. I don't understand how he can do this without feeling for any force or maybe he is so advanced that he can feel for a minuscule amount of pressure or exertion/effort from the opponent, as the force is never allowed to build up to anything harmful, so never touches him?

What about this 'pushing on nothing' scenario. Are you saying the teacher is so advanced/soft that when the opponent pushes him he just falls forward while the teacher just stands there doing nothing, overtly, because if he was doing nothing then the opponent would obviously throw him off balance as would be expected to occur to anybody in such a scenario. Can you please describe more about this nothing to push against scenario what does it feel like ?

[windwalker]

I think trying to discuss these things is pointless on forum's. The only way for this type of knowledge to be passed is in one on one training which is the same for most arts.

good advice which I should follow.

@ amor,

the first part of you question concerning "intent"

If one can not feel this, then they can not do anything with it.
If they can feel it then its quite clear.

2 teachers saying the same thing.

沒有內氣供給的外形動作叫"妄動"那隻是掄胳臂、踢臂，不是打太極拳。
If there is no internal Qi behind the external movements, then it is called "妄動" (“reckless movements”). They are simply arm waving and hitting, and not Tai Chi Chuan.
"意氣為君，骨肉為臣"。意氣和骨肉，不是半斤八兩(過去的秤 16 兩為一斤) ，不是"平起平坐"的關係。意氣是統治者、領導者、支配者; 骨肉是被統治者、領導者、被支配者。
Yi and Qi are the most important (君 ­ Emperor), bones and muscles are secondary (臣 ­ minister). Yi, Qi and bones and muscles do not have the same roles, and do not have equal relationship. Yi and Qi are the ruler, leader, and commander. The bones and muscles listen to the ruler and leader, and follow the commands. { Translator: In Chinese, an emperor gives the command, the ministers carries out the task. The emperor must trust the ministers and not micromanage, and the ministers must not do outside of the emperor's wishes.}

Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi
Chuan
Translated by Richard Man, [email protected]
http://facebook.com/g roups/I MA. LiteraryTrad ition

Before you actually make physical contact, assume an attitude of emptiness. With that established you can very lightly touch your partner’s hand. Once you have touched him, you must not move of your own volition. Think of this phase strictly as a means of training your sensitivity and awareness. Then you use your superior emptiness, awareness, perception, and sensitivity to engage your spirit in order to neutralize even his slightest intent towards movement against you, following and adhering without gaps or resistance. Under these conditions, his faults will unfailingly be immediately apparent to you and the opportunity to deal with his movement will spring naturally to your hands

Master Li Yaxuan’s Explanatory Notes on Push Hands
, I have tried to preserve some of the flavor
of his direct, unpretentious, and refreshingly unpoetic style for your reading enjoyment). - Scott Meredith / Sept 2010 / http://www.zmq37.com]

[Bao]

case in point, my own teacher can not be pushed if he chooses not to be, its not that one can not push him over, its that there really feels like there is nothing to push against
he splits the intent. Not the force. the force never really reaches him as hes dealt with the intent before the force has arrived.
It's different, the reaction among some is to try again this time with more speed, power ect....they kind of miss the point the teacher at this point either dosnt push, stops or sends them flying back if he is sure about their skill to handle it

Interesting, would you be able to explain more about the aspect of splitting intent (which I take to mean splitting of force) without feeling for force? Are you saying your teacher can 'read' his opponents mind before the opponent has a chance to apply force such as a push, grab, punch, throw etc. I don't understand how he can do this without feeling for any force or maybe he is so advanced that he can feel for a minuscule amount of pressure or exertion/effort from the opponent, as the force is never allowed to build up to anything harmful, so never touches him?

What about this 'pushing on nothing' scenario. Are you saying the teacher is so advanced/soft that when the opponent pushes him he just falls forward while the teacher just stands there doing nothing, overtly, because if he was doing nothing then the opponent would obviously throw him off balance as would be expected to occur to anybody in such a scenario. Can you please describe more about this nothing to push against scenario what does it feel like ?

I haven't met Wind's teacher, but I have very similar experience from a couple of my teachers. They are always one step ahead. I don't know exactly what is meant by splitting intent, but how I would express it and what I work with myself, the key is to control distance and angle just as the opponent begin to attack, no, really before he attacks, when or before the opponent is in his own favorable distance and angle. You adjust the distance and angle according to your opponent so you are always closer, further away or at another angle than your opponent wants to. When you try attack someone good at this, you will feel yourself stumbling in air. There will be nothing there to attack. There's no magic behind the method, the principles are rather simple actually. Yet, the "thinking" behind it is trained and in it's simplicity the method is very different from how people act and behave normally when they fight.

[HunYuan]

Wayne 'n Willy:
Sheltered tai chi living. why pay $300.00 seminars for someone with suspect skills and won't push with you?

IME the above statement is NOT true...Also Sifu Adam DOES indeed have the skills...

[neijia_boxer]

Wayne 'n Willy:
Sheltered tai chi living. why pay $300.00 seminars for someone with suspect skills and won't push with you?

IME the above statement is NOT true...Also Sifu Adam DOES indeed have the skills...

it is compliant seminar, "teaching moment" with a guy (Michael paler) humbly working with the teacher. We need to see Adam push with someone non-compliant/non-student to really see what he has. I know a few guys who have competed and won championships like myself that really want to push with him and see if he can do those things on me.

i don't doubt he has some level of skill, I just need to find out the truth for myself so i can say "yeah" or "nay" to my thoughts on seeing his compliant videos for the last 8 years.

[Bao]

it is compliant seminar, "teaching moment" with a guy (Michael paler) humbly working with the teacher. We need to see Adam push with someone non-compliant/non-student to really see what he has. I know a few guys who have competed and won championships like myself that really want to push with him and see if he can do those things on me.

i don't doubt he has some level of skill, I just need to find out the truth for myself so i can say "yeah" or "nay" to my thoughts on seeing his compliant videos for the last 8 years.

Earlier there were some no touch "linkongjin" vids. I wonder what happened to those vids, or more... what happened to that "skill". There's some marketing skill involved as he seem to change his performance according to what's popular for the moment. It's a bit sad because he writes good stuff on different places and shows pretty good things then and then.

But ok, to be fair ... even famous people as William Chen in the earlier days also took the chance to show off with parlor tricks as the "breaking-bricks-on-stomach-with-sledgehammer-trick". The most sad thing maybe is our culture that encourages cirkus and clown acts. Sometimes it's hard to do anything serious and become noticed. Though I still believe that skills should speak for themselves without costume plays.

[windwalker]

It is compliant seminar, "teaching moment" with a guy (Michael paler) humbly working with the teacher. We need to see Adam push with someone non-compliant/non-student to really see what he has. I know a few guys who have competed and won championships like myself that really want to push with him and see if he can do those things on me

Who goes to a seminar to learn something trying to beat the teacher or person conducting it?
Its a skill, leaning a skill is not the same as using it or how how its employed.

the "kong jin" that gets the most press, is an outgrowth of the same ideas processes in use. If looked on in this way it should be relatively understandable.
wheather the time investment is worth it, depends on what one is looking for, for many its really not.

There are many teachers teaching different levels and aspects of the same skill, depends on whats important to the one seeking it whether its
worth it or not..

[Bao]

the "kong jin" that gets the most press, is an outgrowth of the same ideas processes in use. If looked on in this way it should be relatively understandable.
wheather the time investment is worth it, depends on what one is looking for, for many its really not.

There are many teachers teaching different levels and aspects of the same skill, depends on whats important to the one seeking it whether its
worth it or not..

But real or not, you still need to feel it first hand to accept it as a skill a person possess. I have seen clips from this guy, but never read or heard anyone speak about these things as a skill he can show or has.

[windwalker]

Sometimes it's hard to do anything serious and become noticed. Though I still believe that skills should speak for themselves without costume plays.

I think for those teaching and making a living it puts them in a hard place. Real skill may not be believed until its felt as some have noted. The context in which its felt gets questioned, soon the skill itself is questioned. In most cases the context is a "demo or training setting"

wouldn't it be better for those interested to try to duplicate what they see?
IF we where talking about breaking things, wouldnt most go out and try to break the same things?

a small doc. clip for those interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRErLBIMw8A

[windwalker]

But real or not, you still need to feel it first hand to accept it as a skill a person possess. I have seen clips from this guy, but never read or heard anyone speak about these things as a skill he can show or has.

ah yes the crux of the matter, what would happen then is that, that person would then start to be questioned it would be never ending until the questioner or seeker finds out for themselves. Then if the skill was true they would be in the same place, the cycle would begin again.

I have experienced many strange phenomena in tai chi when training and also when not training. I think trying to discuss these things is pointless on forum's. The only way for this type of knowledge to be passed is in one on one training which is the same for most arts.

its good advice but also kind of strange advice considering this is supposed to be an "IMA" site.
One would think that the strange phenomena, would be what was discussed not what is mocked.

IF "IMA" is just like everything else why make the distinction, indeed some have already said that there really is not difference .

On an "IMA" site

[Bao]

But real or not, you still need to feel it first hand to accept it as a skill a person possess. I have seen clips from this guy, but never read or heard anyone speak about these things as a skill he can show or has.

ah yes the crux of the matter, what would happen then is that, that person would then start to be questioned it would be never ending until the questioner or seeker finds out for themselves. Then if the skill was true they would be in the same place, the cycle would begin again.

Ooh, there are sometimes reasons to question a person's intentions regardless what skills a person says he has, just like it's valid to question someone who claims that he has 10th dan in 10 different styles and 9 dans in 20 other styles. When something is too different or exotic, or "too good to be true" there are often reasons to question things.

OTOH, I believe that people have the right to not be questioned and be left alone if they leave others alone.

If people really have skills, whatever that could be, I would suggest that most of them, i.e. If they have a brain, would be very shy about it and not show off their skill to anyone.

I have experienced many strange phenomena in tai chi when training and also when not training. I think trying to discuss these things is pointless on forum's. The only way for this type of knowledge to be passed is in one on one training which is the same for most arts.

its good advice but also kind of strange advice considering this is supposed to be an "IMA" site.
One would think that the strange phenomena, would be what was discussed not what is mocked.

IF "IMA" is just like everything else why make the distinction, indeed some have already said that there really is not difference .

On an "IMA" site

Ha ha! Well stated, +1

[wayne hansen]

Sometimes it's hard to do anything serious and become noticed. Though I still believe that skills should speak for themselves without costume plays.

I think for those teaching and making a living it puts them in a hard place. Real skill may not be believed until its felt as some have noted. The context in which its felt gets questioned, soon the skill itself is questioned. In most cases the context is a "demo or training setting"

wouldn't it be better for those interested to try to duplicate what they see?
IF we where talking about breaking things, wouldnt most go out and try to break the same things?

a small doc. clip for those interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRErLBIMw8A

I have great respect for master huang and our school has a long connection with master huang
It was our grandmaster yap sui ting who introduced huang to CMC
It was Yap who huang called for to come to Malaysia when Huang had trouble with choc seng kam
Yap sorted out Choc who became his no1 student
When I had large classes I would recreate most of master huangs demos for my students
To continually get your students to be compliant you must deskill them
I train my students to avoid the things that are shown in a lot of videos
It does not mean I can't reproduce these effects just that it is not to the benifits of the students
Mizner has skills if not tai chi he can revert to his Jow Gar training under Henry sue this is a lot of what he applys on compliant students

[UniTaichi]

Before you actually make physical contact, assume an attitude of emptiness

The advise/instruction is Gold. If you can empty yourself, only those who are better at it can defeat you. Or at least, your opponent cannot defeat you easily.

its not that one can not push him over, its that there really feels like there is nothing to push against

I am sure that is what one felt when they try to push someone over and '' feels like nothing to push against'' but the ''feeling'' is different at different level. CZQ is one type (of feeling) but another type if with higher level masters, eg. Windwalker teacher.

So what level am I talking about ? It is how GM Li HeSheng categorized (the headings only, the rest is IMU&E the qualities that is should cover) it below :

1. Regard Body as Hand - jibenggong, form, structure, alignment, body-mechanics, relax and taut. Obvious movements, external kinetics. Mechanical.

2. Regard Energy as Hand - All above connected by energy/jing/qi, relax and ''song'' subtle movements. Internal kinetics. Electric/magnetic energy.

3. Regard Yi/Intent as Hand - all movement control by Yi/Intent. Mind over Body, use Yi not Li, very subtle/no movement.


Cheers,
UniTaichi