XingYi Tiger apps

[Pandrews1982]

WD - on watching back I can see what you mean. In the last couple of demonstrations of the elbow it doesn't land cleanly and slides off so I adjust and put more of a forward expression into the strike. It's just a variation but the expression should be mainly downward which I think is maybe better seen in the first one or two demonstrations.

Graham is right, when I was training with my teacher we never used protective gear even with weapons training. The more senior practitioners in my group still do not use protective equipment even with most weapons work too. And I've had injuries also from training without protective gear and recently injured some of my sparring partners so I decided that we would use some protective equipment in certain situations.

There is a reason for not using protective gear and that is to respect the power/potential for injury. I have seen guys strap on gear and just stand and exchange strikes because the gear gives them a false sense of protection whereas without gear they would have been inflicting at least cosmetic damage. So I now prefer to err on the safe side and mix in protective gear depending upon the focus of the training and how heavy it is. We still perform sparring and contact work without protective gear too.

In the demo being shown it is quite easy to break/crack ribs with the elbow or the upward palm/forearm strike (floating ribs and lower ribs) and I've accidentally cracked Joe's ribs before so he wanted to put on some protective gear and I thought it was a good idea too. We filmed some more tiger apps which I think Joe will put out in due course where we don't have protective gear.

We do contact work quite a lot and often I will mix with the beginners and give them just enough to push them outside of their comfort zone without completely shutting them down. I think we have some of this footage to post in the near future but I will maybe try to get some more things out soon.

Tension: There must be some level of tension to create structure and movement, and I am of the school of thought that being extremely soft and pliable is just as bad as being as rigid as a board. The video is a demonstration and I'm trying to emphasise the movements to be clear as to the application and maybe in free fighting I would be looser. My expression of Tiger I believe also emphasises the direct heavy striking which maybe gives the impression of being "tense".

Also I think that the type of striking which we advocate which we call An Jin (Dark force) doesn't have the same whip like or snappy kind of striking a lot of Xing Yi demonstrates, this we also practice (and we call this Ming Jin - Bright Force) but is not as prevalent in our school. The heavier striking we prefer relates to a longer duration of strike with the mass of the body backing up the impact of the strike which promotes the presentation of a strong structure behind the strike, rather than the looser quick snap of the bright jin which doesn't particularly need that structural back-up.

However I get the feel that AJG is inferring musclar tension. I personally don't feel that I am unduly tensing the large muscles in my upper body while practising and it certainly doesn't prevent me from fighting effectively.

P

[Wanderingdragon]

Hit or don't hit, immediate change, these are hallmark of Xing I, in sparring the intent is what drive the strike, you don't pull punches , you stop them, the body stops everything stops. If the body stops and something is still going it is the product of muscle tension and out of control. There are no accidents only bad intent and forced power.

[D_Glenn]

Paul has done some videos on XingYi Tiger recently:

Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VprS9zd_9k

Looks good!

This manner of using the middle of the body/ or Shenfa is the way the Li trigram ☲ Rooster system of our Baguazhang powers it's strikes and attacks. It's a way to hide the dantian, so to speak, as you're moving from the chest, or really finding that separation of movement between shen and yao (thoracic and lumbar).

And this tiger shape is particularly similar as the rooster also uses the elbows to power the forearms and hands striking.

Not too much of the rooster system has been filmed, so not much to compare to yet.

It will be interesting to see how our terminology relates to your Xingyi.



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[D_Glenn]

There's also a warning though, that when practicing this Li trigram, that if you don't know how to properly use this area, that it could prevent the creation of Shen, which is usually just associated with acetylcholine and it's signalling of nerves to muscle contractions.

That's why I'm such a promoter of doing Dantian work and such, Inverting the Kan and Li trigrams, so that you have an abundance of Shen, before you start doing Li Trigram stuff.

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[Bao]

There's also a warning though, that when practicing this Li trigram, that if you don't know how to properly use this area, that it could prevent the creation of Shen, which is usually just associated with acetylcholine and it's signalling of nerves to muscle contractions.

In Bagua and Xingyi, shouldn't you understand to fully use the whole body, i.e. practicing and make use of all of the trigrams? Focusing on only one part of the body, seems through my tai chi eyes, a bit detrimental to general IMA principles.
.. I am also sure that Paul practice all of the animals...

[D_Glenn]

There's also a warning though, that when practicing this Li trigram, that if you don't know how to properly use this area, that it could prevent the creation of Shen, which is usually just associated with acetylcholine and it's signalling of nerves to muscle contractions.

In Bagua and Xingyi, shouldn't you understand to fully use the whole body, i.e. practicing and make use of all of the trigrams? Focusing on only one part of the body, seems through my tai chi eyes, a bit detrimental to general IMA principles.

In the style of Bagua that I practice the eight trigrams are martial systems that each have their own different shenfa.

Ideally everyone learns the Qian trigram system first, as this is 3 solid lines representing the whole body connected - 3 sections of the body, 3 segments in each section, 9 connections.

The Li trigram is different. As I said it intentionally hides the dantian and core from the opponent. It's one of the craziest things I've ever felt, as you think that the root of power is in one place but it's actually on the other side. It's why the Rooster was chosen to represent the trigram as it's like trying to catch a chicken in a field, and just when you think you grabbed it, it darts around and dodges, and you just grab grass. It's also like a flame of a candle, where you try to grab the flame between your fingers but all you get is burned.

.. I am also sure that Paul practice all of the animals...

Yes I am well aware that Paul's Xingyi has a lot of animal forms. I am a big proponent for their Bear-eagle and that is an actual bird of prey. That's besides the point though, it was just this video of Tiger and it's use of elbows that I realized the similarity to our Li Trigram System.

As an afterthought I added the warning from the Li Trigram system's song. Basically it's using the area of the body where qi converts to shen, which when blocked up it can lead to heart arrhythmia, or a lot of people already have one from birth, but incorrectly practicing can make it worse.

So to be sure that it's correct, in our Baguazhang, we first build up a lower dantian and invert the kan and li trigrams, which is making the lower dantian full so that the middle dantian can be empty, and you build up an abundance of neurotransmitters, etc., and then you can use the middle dantian and have it be full, while the lower is empty, because with just a thought, since you've already built up the proverbial water in the lower dantian, you can make it full and instantly extinguish the fire in the middle dantian. Putting water (kan) over the top of the fire (li).

If you don't have a lower dantian built up then it would be like using a thimble of water to douse a campfire.

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[Bao]

and then you can use the middle dantian and have it be full, while the lower is empty, because with just a thought, since you've already built up the proverbial water in the lower dantian, you can make it full and instantly extinguish the fire in the middle dantian. Putting water (kan) over the top of the fire (li).

Don't know what kind of bagua theory that is. It's not neidan or traditional taoist thought.

You can not lift up the water, you can only sink the fire. And fire comes from the heart, not the middle dantian. What you do according to neidan theory is that you let the heart flame drop below below "the stove", or to the dantian where water/dan resides. Then you produce steem/qi. The Hexagram is nr 63 in the Yijing, after completion. This hexagram also represents the "pre-natal" state.

In tai chi, this state is what you should maintain always when you practice form or ZZ. There's no this or the other, only developing and using pre-natal qi. The same goes for Sun Bagua and most of Cheng Bagua lineages as well. Have no idea about how XY practitioners think about this.

Hexagram 63

This hexagram is the evolution of T'ai PEACE (11). The transition from
confusion to order is completed, and everything is in its proper place even in
particulars. The strong lines are in the strong places, the weak lines in the
weak places. This is a very favorable outlook, yet it gives reason for thought.
For it is just when perfect equilibrium has been reached that any movement
may cause order to revert to disorder. The one strong line that has moved to
the top, thus effecting complete order in details, is followed by the other lines.
Each moving according to its nature, and thus suddenly there arises again the
hexagram P'i, STANDSTILL (12).

Hence the present hexagram indicates the conditions of a time of climax,
which necessitate the utmost caution.


THE JUDGMENT


AFTER COMPLETION. Success in small matters.
Perseverance furthers.
At the beginning good fortune.
At the end disorder.

The transition from the old to the new time is already accomplished. In
principle, everything stands systematized, and it si only in regard to details
that success is still to be achieved. In respect to this, however, we must be
careful to maintain the right attitude. Everything proceeds as if of its own
accord, and this can all too easily tempt us to relax and let thing take their
course without troubling over details. Such indifference is the root of all evil.
Symptoms of decay are bound to be the result. Here we have the rule
indicating the usual course of history. But this rule is not an inescapable law.
He who understands it is in position to avoid its effects by dint of unremitting
perseverance and caution.

[Wanderingdragon]

Good reading Bao, and good understanding. When perfect equilibrium is achieved, the reality is in ALLL endeavors, what is the just course ? Hit Or don't hit, there will be disorder, to arrange disorder, there must be change, this is actively seeking balance.

[D_Glenn]

and then you can use the middle dantian and have it be full, while the lower is empty, because with just a thought, since you've already built up the proverbial water in the lower dantian, you can make it full and instantly extinguish the fire in the middle dantian. Putting water (kan) over the top of the fire (li).

Don't know what kind of bagua theory that is. It's not neidan or traditional taoist thought.

I've already written about this (坎离颠倒 Kan Li Diandao -Turned Upside Down/ Reversed) before: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18886&sid=fffabef96e43be378d7ec2c0eacfe84d#p317595, but what you are actually doing is taking the solid line out of the middle of the Kan and putting it in the middle of Li, Changing Li into Qian trigram, so it's kind of 颠倒 Diandao (Reversed; Switched around; Rearranged), it's just a classic term and I just translate it in the typical fashion, for brevity.

Basically if you look at Mingmen point as an oil lamp then you turn down the dial until the flames drop lower until then a small blue flame warms the blood and water in the Inferior Vena Cava and kidneys, instead of the superior Vena Cava, Aorta and cardio-pulmonary system around the heart and lungs. Tucking the tailbone under and keeping qi in the lower dantian does this. Warm kidneys and more blood in the kidneys allows for more production of EPO, which in turn increases health of the vessels and veins.

So stage 1 is putting a pot of water over the oil lamp and gathering steam, but stage 2 is no longer burning oil but creating proverbial hot coals inside a furnace and you are dealing with the Qian (Heaven) above the Kun (Kan using the broken line from the middle of Li changes into Kun- The Earth.


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[D_Glenn]

Your IChing texts describe the Natural Order of things.

In Cultivation/ Neidan we want to Reverse/ Move Contrary (Ni) to the natural order, so the trigrams and hexagrams go in a Reverse order:

So if you want to look at the Hexagrams then you have Fire over Water ䷿ "Hexagram 64 未濟 (wèi jì), "Not Yet Fording". Other variations include "before completion" and "not yet completed". Its inner trigram is ☵ (坎 kǎn) gorge = (水) water, and its outer trigram is ☲ (離 lí) radiance = (火) fire."

Then you build up the Lower Dantian and 坎离颠倒 Kan Li Diandao -Turned Upside Down/ Reversed, and have ䷾ "Hexagram 63 既濟 (jì jì), "Already Fording". Other variations include "after completion" and "already completed" or "already done" . Its inner trigram is ☲ (離 lí) radiance = (火) fire, and its outer trigram is ☵ (坎 kǎn) gorge = (水) water".

Then you have ䷋ "Hexagram 12 is named 否 (pǐ), "Obstruction". Other variations include "standstill (stagnation)" and "selfish persons"."
But this is that selfish/ self-cultivating phase of Daoism, where afterwards you 否極泰來 PijiTaili (Extreme sorrow/ selfishness (Eating Bitter to taste the Sweet) becomes Extreme Joy/ Peace/ Greatness) and you have ䷊ "Hexagram 11 is named 泰 (tài), "Pervading". Other variations include "peace" and "greatness"."

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[Bao]

Your IChing texts describe the Natural Order of things.
In Cultivation/ Neidan we want to Reverse/ Move Contrary (Ni) to the natural order, so the trigrams and hexagrams go in a Reverse order:

No, that's not correct. We are not in the "natural order" of things. In the Daodejing, Laozi use Ziran - naturalness to describe the course of the Dao. We are not "natural". To naturalness and simplicity is what we strive towards. According to the daoism of Laozi and Zhuangzi, we are too complicated, intellectual and has lost the roots we still had when we were children. This "thinking" has had a direct impact on neidan practice. This is the same naturalness we strive for in neidan or tai chi.

Neidan cultivation is about returning to nature, returning to the natural order. The common state of the human is hexagram 64, fire over water. It's through reversing it, dropping the heart fire into the stove (dantian) below the water you will have steam, qi circulation. It's by keeping qi circulation in movement you can develop and practice pre-natal movements and nourish the pre-heaven jing.

The transition from confusion to order is completed, and everything is in its proper place even in
particulars.

For it is just when perfect equilibrium has been reached that any movement
may cause order to revert to disorder. The one strong line that has moved to
the top, thus effecting complete order in details,

Hence the present hexagram indicates the conditions of a time of climax,
which necessitate the utmost caution.

THE JUDGMENT

Success in small matters.
Perseverance furthers.

...everything stands systematized, and it is only in regard to details
that success is still to be achieved. In respect to this, however, we must be
careful to maintain the right attitude.
Everything proceeds as if of its own
accord, and this can all too easily tempt us to relax and let thing take their
course without troubling over details.

All of this describes neidan and tai chi practice perfectly.

First, the heart flame needs to sink. It's by calmness of mind and stillness of the body, we can sink the breath into the dantian. First then we can start to circulate qi. This is like making chinese tea. The leaves need to sink by themselves. Then we need to be careful, too much movement will make them rise again. In tai chi, we need to move careful and with thought, watching the details carefully.

[D_Glenn]

First, the heart flame needs to sink. It's by calmness of mind and stillness of the body, we can sink the breath into the dantian. First then we can start to circulate qi. This is like making chinese tea. The leaves need to sink by themselves. Then we need to be careful, too much movement will make them rise again. In tai chi, we need to move careful and with thought, watching the details carefully.

You do realize that we are basically saying the same thing? (about what happens in Stage 1 that is.)

All that I am saying is that the Yijing/ IChing describes nature as it is. As it was written by observing the natural cycles of the world.

The real goal of cultivation (for a martial artist) is that you want to reach the point where Shen returns to Qi, Qi returns to Jing, and Jing returns to Xing. This is reversing the natural order of things.

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[Bao]

Mmm... Yijing and Daoism sometimes do have different ways to express things. In some ways Yijing lies closer to Confucianism. "A Confucian way to explain daoist thoughts" as a scholar on chinese philosophy put it.

I get you. From a neidan POV though, I would rather say:

"The real goal of cultivation is that you want to reach the point where Shen returns to Qi, Qi returns to Jing, and Jing returns to Xing. This is reversing to the natural order of things."

The meaning might be the same, just one word of disagreement.

[D_Glenn]

I think some definitions are needed.

My definition of the natural order/ cycle of things is: xing creates jing, jing creates qi, qi creates shen.

Thereby making going in reverse/ living a life that is Contrary (ni) to the natural order/ cycle of things is reaching the goal of when Shen returns (converts back into) to Qi, Qi returns to Jing, and Jing returns to Xing.

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[Wanderingdragon]

Traveling East you will know the West, traveling West you will know the East , yet the method is always the same, that is one.
The point is absolute, to know it is to know the balance in perfect equilibrium.