Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Daniel-san on Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:55 pm

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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby nicklinjm on Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:32 am

To be honest, as the OP, I am not that interested in the psychology behind these challenges as I am extremely familiar with it, classic passive-aggressive BS where they scope you out for a while before deciding to challenge you, mask it as a friendly 'push hands' game, and then try and go all out to hurt you.

Very common in China I'm afraid, and is the reason why I do not push hands with strangers.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:39 am

I was going to say thank god we don't have to deal with this bullshit with bjj but then I realised we've just got different bullshit, like the guy who wants to "roll light" then tries to rip your head off. Human interaction is basically a mess :)
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Bhassler on Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:17 am

windwalker wrote:
These people will normally watch a bit and then either issue a challenge or just leave. In this case, the head person decided to issue a challenge. A challenge is not formal like in the movies. The challenger will simply give a high praise to a move and ask the instructor to try it on him.

This is highly unfair as the instructor has shown his move and the move is for showing the application of a move in the form. He is in this case, expected to demonstrate that move on the uncooperative challenger. He cannot use a different move, however. It would be considered cheating. So again it is very difficult for the instructor to respond but he cannot refuse.

http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/


I've never heard of this attitude from any of my teachers, Chinese or otherwise. If you want to step up, it's always been "do whatever you want and take the consequences". Or, as my taiji teacher said, "Take the guy into a corner and beat the shit out of him." Taking him into the corner means away from other eyes so he can save some face. Beating the shit out of him may or may not be taken to actually hurt the guy, but means you have to really do your stuff so there are no questions and the guy has no chance to take a cheap shot.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:21 am

I've never heard of this attitude from any of my teachers, Chinese or otherwise. If you want to step up, it's always been "do whatever you want and take the consequences". Or, as my taiji teacher said, "Take the guy into a corner and beat the shit out of him." Taking him into the corner means away from other eyes so he can save some face. Beating the shit out of him may or may not be taken to actually hurt the guy, but means you have to really do your stuff so there are no questions and the guy has no chance to take a cheap shot.


seems odd coming from the article itself. ie "a chinese teacher talking about the things done in china."

you might define what beating the shit of someone means. Any one can beat someone else thats not the issue. The issue is the way in which its done or not.

for taiji, what people want and expect is the skill use of ying/yang demonstrated in a free setting if someone steps up as you mentioned.

In my own group in beijing, someone came with his teacher. His teacher watched us and talked with my teacher.
who later motioned for one of the senior to come over and paly with with what I guess was the teachers student.

this senior was not known for being gentle, I felt sorry watching the guy get hit, bounced around and thrown out repeatedly.
when it came my time to interact with him, all I did was to follow, stick and join neutralizing all of his movements with out hurting him or embarrassing him.
He appreciated my own skill, both him and his teacher left on good terms..


In china what I encountered was that if people they didn't know your or you them, they might you ask friendly or not.

If one could demo real taiji skill,
then most would smile understanding that they have
felt something not so common. In China, more so if the person was a foreigner



China's a pretty big place

but means you have to really do your stuff so there are no questions and the guy has no chance to take a cheap shot


hopefully ones stuff is what they practice, for many its not really. This is what the article was talking about
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:55 am

nicklinjm wrote:To be honest, as the OP, I am not that interested in the psychology behind these challenges as I am extremely familiar with it, classic passive-aggressive BS where they scope you out for a while before deciding to challenge you, mask it as a friendly 'push hands' game, and then try and go all out to hurt you.

Very common in China I'm afraid, and is the reason why I do not push hands with strangers.


For me it really seemed to depend on ones language skills, along with ones level of taiji.
If things got heated being able to talk helps to cool it down, if one is not so skillful.

If one was very skillful no need for talking, most would feel it at first contact, and tended to smile
unless as was mentioned the intent was to hurt someone.

what I found often times being the only foreigner people would watch and comment
on the skill being shown or lack of.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Bhassler on Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:57 pm

windwalker wrote:China's a pretty big place


Yup, and that's more what my comments were aimed towards, not a critique of CZH or his approach. Personally, I don't find it very productive to try to force a technique to work-- the interaction should dictate the technique, not the other way around, so as someone from the outside asking to cross hands, I would want a person to do whatever they wanted. Of course, I'm just trying to learn from people with skills, I'm not out to make a reputation at some else's expense.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Andy_S on Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:21 pm

Interesting to read the background to the challenges in the link that Windy posted; made me appreciate Chen Xun more.

In his first clip, he accepts the challenge of a much bigger bruiser who was apparently the local "Taiji bully" - he had challenged every nearby park teacher and seminar teacher and beaten them up, which basically ruined the local Taiji scene. When he challenged the much smaller Chen, he got taught a lesson.

In Chen's second clip, against a big chap in red, he throws the guy four or five times, and does not go down once himself, but (as can be seen from the clip) the big guy keeps telling him that he is "wrong" and is not doing "real Taiji." Apparently, Mr Arrogant walked away believing he had won!

Also interesting in that - if you read the accounts of the challenges without watching the clip - they come across as pretty epic. If you see the clips, they are simply competitive PH matches. Which has to make you wonder about the legendary challenges of yore...
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Spncr on Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:07 pm

Andy_S wrote:...
Also interesting in that - if you read the accounts of the challenges without watching the clip - they come across as pretty epic. If you see the clips, they are simply competitive PH matches. Which has to make you wonder about the legendary challenges of yore...


LOL, agree
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:15 am

Andy_S wrote:
In his first clip, he accepts the challenge of a much bigger bruiser who was apparently the local "Taiji bully" - he had challenged every nearby park teacher and seminar teacher and beaten them up, which basically ruined the local Taiji scene. When he challenged the much smaller Chen, he got taught a lesson.

In Chen's second clip, against a big chap in red, he throws the guy four or five times, and does not go down once himself, but (as can be seen from the clip) the big guy keeps telling him that he is "wrong" and is not doing "real Taiji." Apparently, Mr Arrogant walked away believing he had won!
..


This type of passive-aggressive challenges are pretty common in Taiwan too, especially in public places like parks where there are multiple groups from different styles and lineages present. Ever once in a while you get a "lone ranger" who shows up out of the nowhere and stays on the sidelines for anywhere from a few hours to days and weeks, just looking on while sizing up any potential targets. Once they have their eyes set on someone, they would approach -- usually all smiles -- and ask for a friendly round of exchange (when in reality it's anything but.)

The bruiser in the first clip obviously has done some Shuai Jiao, which is evident in the way he clinches, and the use of elbow locks and foot sweeps.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Andy_S on Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:21 am

SNIP
This type of passive-aggressive challenges are pretty common in Taiwan too
SNIP

I see the "aggressive" I don't see the "passive."
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:47 am

nicklinjm wrote:To be honest, as the OP, I am not that interested in the psychology behind these challenges as I am extremely familiar with it, classic passive-aggressive BS where they scope you out for a while before deciding to challenge you, mask it as a friendly 'push hands' game, and then try and go all out to hurt you.

Very common in China I'm afraid, and is the reason why I do not push hands with strangers.



I had a similar thing happen not long after I moved to Shanghai. I was watching some Wu style Taiji guys doing push hands in Luxun Park, and went up to chat with them. When they learnt that I had trained Mantis they invited me to push with the teacher, so I agreed, but made it clear I have very little experience with push hands. One by one students came up to push with me, and of course I was playing to their rules, so I was "being beaten". Then the old "your style is merely external bla bla bla" came out, at this point I realised they weren't regarding it as a light-hearted bit of pushing, and I knew I couldn't beat them at their own game, so I just smiled and left.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:57 am

Andy_S wrote:SNIP
This type of passive-aggressive challenges are pretty common in Taiwan too
SNIP

I see the "aggressive" I don't see the "passive."


The actual challenges are aggressive for sure; the "passive" part I was referring to is how those challengers would often act nice and friendly at first to sort of coax you into crossing hands with them, when in fact all they are interested in is to knock your arse on the ground and stroke their egos -- the same kind of stuff nicklinjm and chenyaolong have also mentioned.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:15 am

C.J.W. wrote:
Andy_S wrote:SNIP
This type of passive-aggressive challenges are pretty common in Taiwan too
SNIP

I see the "aggressive" I don't see the "passive."


The actual challenges are aggressive for sure; the "passive" part I was referring to is how those challengers would often act nice and friendly at first to sort of coax you into crossing hands with them, when in fact all they are interested in is to knock your arse on the ground and stroke their egos -- the same kind of stuff nicklinjm and chenyaolong have also mentioned.


Although rather than knocking your arse to the ground, it's more they make you play their game, then they can easily beat you within their own rule set. I think a fair way would be to go one round playing their game, then another round your own game. But they would never agree to do something out their own comfort zone.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:59 am

chenyaolong wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:
Andy_S wrote:SNIP
This type of passive-aggressive challenges are pretty common in Taiwan too
SNIP

I see the "aggressive" I don't see the "passive."


The actual challenges are aggressive for sure; the "passive" part I was referring to is how those challengers would often act nice and friendly at first to sort of coax you into crossing hands with them, when in fact all they are interested in is to knock your arse on the ground and stroke their egos -- the same kind of stuff nicklinjm and chenyaolong have also mentioned.


Although rather than knocking your arse to the ground, it's more they make you play their game, then they can easily beat you within their own rule set. I think a fair way would be to go one round playing their game, then another round your own game. But they would never agree to do something out their own comfort zone.


not really true IME. also wouldnt it seem strange that your watching something and they ask you if you want to try it, ie "their game" as you put it.

I dont quite get it, of course they wont challenge you directly. If one does not understand this I would question the amount of time they spent in China.
One can always just smile and tell them no or square off with them directly....one is in their culture, it can be dangerous in the parks if one does not understand the underling rules. More so if your a laowai who seems to have some skill.

Having said this, what I have found is that if ones skill is good and within their understanding of taiji, it gets respect even if one does not do well. Its understood that
the person at least understands what its about and what its not. "a gen comment"

ph hands allows one not to be inured and test a direct skill. the way to gauge it is to feel if how it felt.
If if felt like anything else one was used to dealing with, then it was.
IMO, not much point..to carry on with it, for what to win at skill testing for a style that
that one doesn't practice?

It should feel quite different, and distinct depending on skill
then one can engage, and more often then not be invited to try different things ie "your game" to allow one to see and feel the differences
much has been said about understanding the "ground game" this is also kind of the same in that the "skill" is quite different
something that most will not have felt or had to deal with.



my classmate, while in the US would take on anyone allowing them to do pretty much as they wished. Kind of a mistake for many unless they understood the nature of intention, empty and full. Kinda funny at times.

Students who witnessed it told me about how a big, buffed-out, experienced martial artist pulled up to challenge him. Spontaneous encounters are Zhao’s specialty. He is always ready. There is no perceptible moment when he appears to shift his consciousness or change his stature.

This encounter ended with him looking up at Zhao from the ground, having to be convinced of the potential danger and utter futility of coming back up for another attack. None of this is hyperbole. His speed and control is unnerving.


Zhao, used to regard all people he didnt know as challenges, a bit unfair to those thinking it was just ph, of course he would also tell them to do what they wanted to do.
it didnt matter much.

But they would never agree to do something out their own comfort zone


let me understand this, you ask and agree to their rule set and then expect them to adopt yours when you dont do well?
seems like their not the ones asking to play.

as a young GI in Korea, my soldiers where watching some ROK soldiers play Ssireum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ssireum

they laughed at it, I told them they should try it. each did and got tossed by the much smaller ROK soldiers.
My guys knowing I practiced CMA asked me to try, at first I refused understanding he skill level the ROKs had. not really interested in it.
The ROKs asked me to try, I did and manged to throw one out 1 time out of 3....not to bad for playing "their game" as many say.
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