Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:37 am

What I'm saying is push hands is only a platform for testing your skill in certain areas, a lot of Taiji people here take push hands to be the be all and end all. They take your skill at push hands to be a conclusion of your skill at martial arts. If a boxer met a judoka and asked him to put gloves on and have a boxing match, would that be a fair way to test the judokas skill? Surely a fair way would be for both parties to try each other out at their own respective games - ie a match in each format.

When I trained Taekkyon in Korea, a lot of the students wanted to spar with me, initially they only wanted me to play their rules - which was using legs. Well I wasnt used to not being able to us my hands at all, and was being owned. However, later when I suggested we have a try with hands too, the tables turned and they realised I had some skill. In the end we both respected each others specialities, and after class I would show some of them mantis hand techniques. The teacher even asked me to give some demonstrations in my last class before I left Korea.

You've said in several posts you question the amount of time I've spent in China.... I've been here since 2007, except for a year I spent in Korea (spring 2014-15). Yes, I understand the culture quite well.... and it is because of that I don't just accept everything. IME it is the people who are new to a country who accept everything they see as they feel like a guest. When you've been here some time, you start to question things, rather than just accept it "as the way it is".
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:52 am

When you've been here some time, you start to question things, rather than just accept it "as the way it is".


very true but I dont really know whether there is a choice, after all its their culture.
I found it to be "the way it is" whether I agreed with it out not.
my comments are in gen and I hope not taken personally...

have great respect and admiration for those living there long term. ;)

Totally agree about the ph hands thing...its kind of misrepresentation of taiji but is the thing that gets the most press.
I understand the feeling about this, but "it is the way it, it is"

The mantis I used to know had a type of sticky drills similar to ph but not really the same.

to be a little more clear
you've said in several posts you question the amount of time I've spent in China.


Its something that I may seem to question not understanding how anyone with any length of time there would keep questioning it.
seems kind of pointless to me, its not gonna change. Either one accepts it, for what is and moves on or not...I've met people who've spent many yrs
in places that they always complained about...or question



luck in your travels
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:57 pm

I don't take it personally, and the last thing I want is to start an argument online.

Just know this: I'm British.... it's in our nature to complain, so don't think too much into it. On the whole I love living in China, and have got so much from my time here.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:34 pm

In all those challenge clips, why don't we see any "jump up and down" effect (such as shown in the following clip)? Are those guys skill level too low?

Last edited by johnwang on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:45 pm

johnwang wrote:In all those challenge clips, why don't we see any "jump up and down" effect (such as shown in the following clip)? Are those guys skill level too low?




Image
http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/

because it was not shown dosent mean it didnt happen.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby dspyrido on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:54 pm

windwalker wrote:
johnwang wrote:In all those challenge clips, why don't we see any "jump up and down" effect (such as shown in the following clip)? Are those guys skill level too low?




Image
http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/

because it was not shown dosent mean it didnt happen.


Are you saying that if Ms Bian had a strong aggresive attacker go for a take down he would bounce and hop away like this? Or would we just see a repeat of this?

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23902&start=0&sid=2e1b6ea6d361293df2497f0284f65c98
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:52 pm

dspyrido wrote:
windwalker wrote:
johnwang wrote:In all those challenge clips, why don't we see any "jump up and down" effect (such as shown in the following clip)? Are those guys skill level too low?




Image
http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/

because it was not shown dosent mean it didnt happen.


Are you saying that if Ms Bian had a strong aggresive attacker go for a take down he would bounce and hop away like this? Or would we just see a repeat of this?

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23902&start=0&sid=37147d90ccaa16073004d38563f9bfc5


I am saying anyone who wants to know should find out for themselves.
Instead of making uninformed comments they would have first hand knowledge.


The real question, can any of those asking do what is shown by Ms Bian?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby wuwei sifu on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:36 am

3rd video. yes, red shirt is good, but he has a nasty habit of destroying his zhong ding/Central Eqb.
I can see this is something he has developed, so part of it may be feigning/luring but it puts him in a bad result with a person who's quite skilled obviously. it results in making himself fight from the bottom, but he doesn't do well there imho.
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby dspyrido on Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:14 pm

windwalker wrote:
I am saying anyone who wants to know should find out for themselves.
Instead of making uninformed comments they would have first hand knowledge.


The real question, can any of those asking do what is shown by Ms Bian?


When the bouncing starts ms bian is not doing anything so... yes I can do nothing.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:59 pm

dspyrido wrote:
windwalker wrote:
I am saying anyone who wants to know should find out for themselves.
Instead of making uninformed comments they would have first hand knowledge.


The real question, can any of those asking do what is shown by Ms Bian?


When the bouncing starts ms bian is not doing anything so... yes I can do nothing.


let me help you

watch the clip again and watch the knees and ankles, yes it looks like nothing

so does this traveling through the ocean Image

Image
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Andy_S on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:12 am

SNIP
In all those challenge clips, why don't we see any "jump up and down" effect (such as shown in the following clip)? Are those guys skill level too low?
SNIP

This is a perfectly fair and good question.

My response: The Chen Practical Method clips showed real PH challenges, against big blokes, who had some skill and were there to win.

The "bounce them around" clips I have seen are exclusively demos against students who are not really "fighting" in any way, shape or form.

Perhaps these bouncing demos are useful for teaching certain principles? But I have yet to see anyone pull them off against anyone who is really going for it. There again, I come from Chen style, where such demos are rare.

(And from what I can see of it, the photo Windy posted - of Chen Zhonghua bouncing someone up and away - looks more like a teaching or demo situation than a combative situation. Chen DOES mention sending a guy flying in one of his clips, and says it was filmed but (1) until that clip is posted we will not know what he did; and (2) it is not clear that the guy was "bounced" up, up and away - he could well have been thrown or projected in a way we can all clearly understand.)

FYI, there is a series of clips of some very senior Chinese Taiji masters pushing against one another in Beijing in the 1980s. Among them are several who do these kinds of bouncing demos. Not a single one of of them was able to pull these bouncy skills off against a resisting opponent - albeit the "opponent" was another Taiji master doing PH with the usual constrained rules of PH. Yet their unusual skills are demonstrated - working on their students.

So my sense is:
(1) They are real masters demonstrating the principle of a real kind of unusual force, but it is one that is not directly applicable to combat the way it is demonstrated; or
(2) They are dolts who are deluded/deluding themselves; or
(3) In some cases, both of the above may apply - particularly if masters spend decades teaching and demoing, and lose the sense or ability to react to real incoming force.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:39 am

So my sense is:
(1) They are real masters demonstrating the principle of a real kind of unusual force, but it is one that is not directly applicable to combat the way it is demonstrated; or
(2) They are dolts who are deluded/deluding themselves; or
(3) In some cases, both of the above may apply - particularly if masters spend decades teaching and demoing, and lose the sense or ability to react to real incoming force.


and my point is that not one of the people asking about this can do it, or have felt it ect.
yet they feel quite qualified to comment on something they've never experienced, nor can do.
wonders of wonders....

try it? try it and see if one can do it should be a simple task for most here.
all things often talked about are involved. 5 bow, 6 harmonies, cross body alignment, spiral and wave force ect.
are shown in the demos...some more obvious then others.


1. they'er demos in each case many masters demo the same things getting the same results , always questioned by those who cant to, never felt, its the same with whats called "IP"
except that some have felt it, even after feeling this they never seem to be able to explain it nor talk much about it.

2. "dolts" again name calling, everyone is a dolt except those who dont practice what is shown. The real way to question it would be to explain how its done and why its either not really practical or what is being done is not really whats being explained.

3. "incoming force" very rich, if one does not understand "force" then what is shown is not possible, it is by this understand force that what is shown is possible.

You think the video is a fake, do you?

For those who are sceptical of the pushing hand and striking hand videos, I absolutely understand where you are coming from and of your scepticism. Since you have not had the pleasure of doing power push hand with any one of us, your opinion is obvious and totally expected.

But, wouldn't you rather have much more solid opinion of what we do, after having a direct experience with 'dynamic' power push hand? Wouldn't that add a certain credibility to your sceptical criticism? If someone were to ask you of your scepticism and based on what evidences, how will you answer it? Because what? Because of what you happen to perceive...? What logical explanation do you have for your scepticism?

What...because what we do doesn't seem to jive with the law of physics? How do you know? Do you think you are more scientifically knowledgeable than my students who have Ph. D. in nuclear physics and string theory physics? You find it ridiculous because of the nonsensical bouncing of the person getting pushed? What makes you think that you won't bounce as ridiculously as well?

http://www.nytaichi.com/sparringvideo.htm

still no takers by those often questioning,,and yes I've seen RobP2 clip. he has his story the teacher has another.
why not go and find ones own story.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:42 am

And from what I can see of it, the photo Windy posted - of Chen Zhonghua bouncing someone up and away - looks more like a teaching or demo situation than a combative situation. Chen DOES mention sending a guy flying in one of his clips, and says it was filmed but (1) until that clip is posted we will not know what he did; and (2) it is not clear that the guy was "bounced" up, up and away - he could well have been thrown or projected in a way we can all clearly understand.)


its not "we" its some,,,that some can understand.
for those who felt, can do, work with, their's nothing to understand they know.



FYI, there is a series of clips of some very senior Chinese Taiji masters pushing against one another in Beijing in the 1980s. Among them are several who do these kinds of bouncing demos. Not a single one of of them was able to pull these bouncy skills off against a resisting opponent


saw it, looks like you looked at it, but didnt see it.

there where no resisting opponents. at that level the skill is in trying to make the other resist not resisting what is happening.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Andy_S on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:13 am

Windwalker:

I was not saying that all who do these demos are dolts are delusional - though some very obviously are (as per the clips posted of said persons being publicly embarrassed in front of the camera).

The only time I have asked to feel this kind of bouncy fajing force (from a visiting female master from the mainland who was teaching in a park in Hong Kong) I was rather rudely refused.

Though as I have said, I would love to see evidence that these bouncing away/flying away skills are applicable to "live" combative/competitive situations, rather than only on students, or in demonstrations.

As for the Beijing masters PH meet in the 1990s, perhaps "resisting" was the wrong word. To restate: They were not able to bounce out opponents who were competing against them, which was very different to the reactions of their students or polite strangers in cooperative demo formats. Fair enough?
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:27 am

As for the Beijing masters PH meet in the 1990s, perhaps "resisting" was the wrong word. To restate: They were not able to bounce out opponents who were competing against them, which was very different to the reactions of their students or polite strangers in cooperative demo formats. Fair enough?

;)

most of what they where doing was on the inside at that level...with people of equal level. with others they would probably react as others do trying to resit it.

a chess master playing with another chess master makes his moves differently and takes longer then dealing with someone who cant play chess but knows how to play checkers.
its a different game.

small story:
a teacher I knew in Taiwan, we met and we pushed., in just touching hands I could feel his skill, he could feel mine.
inside lots of movement, outside almost none...we both laughed and disengaged.
His students confused asked what happened the teacher related how we where both chasing each others centers inside.

My own classmate now in beijing had met many in SF, some bounced and fell, others got thrown.
He was pretty rough and did not give them time to bounce out nicly, this was against people who where trying to take him out.
dosnt look as clean but the principles of the what, how and why are the same.

From reading the many comments over and over again.

everything that most look for is based on resistance. When there is none its often question as to why?
The feeling often is that its faked or compliant or what ever. Lots of people who've had experiences in other MA
often stay after meeting such people feeling a skill they have not felt before trying to understand what exactly was it that they
felt or was being done.

I wont even address the failures often shown,,watched and seen many...
my only comment would be that in CMA or any art the same can be found and shown.
its just not looked for and posted as here.

strangely enough on an IMA site.

one would figure that either most would post examples of it being used,
or examples of themselves using it.

what we have here is people who admittedly dont even practice
it, or have moved on to other things, commenting on things they say they practiced
not having what they moved on too.....

also kinda strange.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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