Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:49 am

The only time I have asked to feel this kind of bouncy fajing force (from a visiting female master from the mainland who was teaching in a park in Hong Kong) I was rather rudely refused.


must have been your rumored strikingly good looks ;)

really depends on the teacher and how they'er approached and when.
In a teaching environment you didnt feel it was kinda rude to interrupt her.

the better course would have been to talk with one of the students during a brake.
also if the teacher has no gate keepers then its even more pressure and kind of waste of time to deal with strangers.


In this very post, on challenges its laid out pretty well on how such things are viewed and handled.

Recently I was in Taipei with visiting with a teacher that I've seen on the web, and my students had asked about.
one of my students from the US was there too, he native Taiwanese

I watched and listened not wanting to interrupt his class, my student asked the teacher directly and was refused, even the teachers students refused him.
I watched understanding most of what was being done. Actually at that point I didnt really want to bother the teacher..but my student wanted to see and talk
with him.

quietly I spoke to one of the other students off line, touched hands as
they say and moved him using the same methods the teacher used although not to the same level.
different approach different results.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Bhassler on Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:54 pm

windwalker wrote:
So my sense is:
(1) They are real masters demonstrating the principle of a real kind of unusual force, but it is one that is not directly applicable to combat the way it is demonstrated; or
(2) They are dolts who are deluded/deluding themselves; or
(3) In some cases, both of the above may apply - particularly if masters spend decades teaching and demoing, and lose the sense or ability to react to real incoming force.


and my point is that not one of the people asking about this can do it, or have felt it ect.
yet they feel quite qualified to comment on something they've never experienced, nor can do.
wonders of wonders....


That's not very sound logic. If someone claims that they can shit pterodactyls that will fly to the moon and come back with basket full of golden eggs, and I say they're lying, then asking if I can shit moon-pterodactyls does not really prove anything.

Also, what CZH is demonstrating in the picture is just a big projection and can be described by fairly straightforward Newtonian physics. Someone hopping up and down many, many times is something else entirely.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:02 pm

its not about claiming, describing or explaining.

It's called experience and doing, which if more had and could, discussions like these would never happen.

People would know.

That's not very sound logic. If someone claims that they can shit pterodactyls that will fly to the moon and come back with basket full of golden eggs, and I say they're lying, then asking if I can shit moon-pterodactyls does not really prove anything.


now if someone could show what you claimed, that would be something.
and if others could do it, they then could say no its not really a pterodactyl its a pigeon.

BTDT

no matter what is shown or how its explained many will not accept it until.

strangely enough many of those same people once they find it ,,,they become quiet
most dont post here to much if at all anymore...I can understand this.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:10 pm

Also, what CZH is demonstrating in the picture is just a big projection and can be described by fairly straightforward Newtonian physics. Someone hopping up and down many, many times is something else entirely.


ok

go for it, describe it
then explain how the other is something else entirely...

honestly I'm not interested maybe some one else is.
to go from talking about this
About Challenges. What they are
is simple: About Challenges challenges! This information is for the few who don’t know.

http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/
seems pretty standard stuff to me.

to one of talking about skill levels and what is done.... :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby charles on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:36 pm

windwalker wrote:strangely enough many of those same people once they find it ,,,they become quiet
most dont post here to much if at all anymore...I can understand this.


What's there to say? No matter how many words you use, you can't adequately explain or describe the color "blue" to someone who has never experienced it.

That said, one of the ways in which CZH describes "the method" is that you setup tensions in the opponent, internal to the opponent's body. This is done by applying or directing specific forces in specific directions. If you are nice, and are not trying to harm the opponent, you allow a single direction in which the opponent can release that tension. The release of that tension is what propels the opponent: the opponent is propelling himself in order not to get injured.

A simplistic demonstration of that is to grab and anchor an opponents hand, elbow facing the ground, and then lift vertically under the opponent's elbow, extending the opponent's arm and locking his elbow. As you lift, the (unskilled) opponent rises to lessen the effect on the elbow. The (unskilled) opponent will than dance on his toes as you lead him around. If you perform this action very abruptly - but not so abruptly that the opponent has no time to react - the opponent will jump vertically. You've intentionally left the upward direction available to him to lessen the effect of his situation. The opponent's body immediately senses that direction and reacts.

If you aren't nice, or are trying to harm the opponent, you don't leave a direction available in which the opponent can release that tension. The result is that something in the opponent breaks or tears. In the above simplistic example, If you happen to be positioned to prevent the opponent from rising - such as simultanously sitting on his hip - he has no direction in which he can go to lessen the effect on his elbow: something will either break or tear. There is no bouncing or jumping, just damage.

I'm not suggesting that this is what people who jump 15 times over a 20 foot distance are doing. Maybe, maybe not.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:41 pm

That said, one of the ways in which CZH describes "the method" is that you setup tensions in the opponent, internal to the opponent's body. This is done by applying or directing specific forces in specific directions. If you are nice, and are not trying to harm the opponent, you allow a single direction in which the opponent can release that tension. The release of that tension is what propels the opponent: the opponent is propelling himself in order not to get injured.

;)

another very clear explanation

]The release of that tension is what propels the opponent: [u]the opponent is propelling himself in order not to get injured[


exactly :)

missed this

I'm not suggesting that this is what people who jump 15 times over a 20 foot distance are doing. Maybe, maybe not.


its along the same line but using a different method, one thats based on using intent directly.
dont want to ruin what you've written so clearly about... maybe, maybe not is more like maybe but different. ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Bhassler on Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:31 pm

windwalker wrote:
Also, what CZH is demonstrating in the picture is just a big projection and can be described by fairly straightforward Newtonian physics. Someone hopping up and down many, many times is something else entirely.


ok

go for it, describe it
then explain how the other is something else entirely...


An object in motion tends to stay in motion. If you apply a force that very efficiently moves a body in a direction, that body will tend to move in the same direction unless acted on by another force. I and many others have experienced this, and to have it performed without easily perceptible motion is not common, but it's not outside the realm of many people's experience. That's what CZH is doing.

Bouncing up and down multiple times requires multiple changes in direction of force. Where does those changes in direction come from?
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby charles on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:04 pm

Bhassler wrote: that body will tend to move in the same direction unless acted on by another force.


That's momentum.

That's what CZH is doing.


I can tell you from personal experience that is not principally what he is doing. See my post, above.

I and many others have experienced this


If what you have experienced is momentum-based, then, no, you likely haven't experienced what he is doing.
Last edited by charles on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Bhassler on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:38 pm

I'm talking about the movement of the recipient once the force has been imparted, not the initial generation of the force itself.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby I-mon on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:46 pm

I've been bounced off by quite a few teachers, by forces that were very clear and which I wasn't able to stop. I've also been mysteriously redirected by one teacher (Cai Songfang) such that I found myself moving in a different direction after pushing into his centre, without feeling a single thing from him - nothing, no push, no pull, no resistance, not a damn thing. I still have no idea how he did that. I've been tossed around by both of my Daito Ryu teachers, against full resistance.

I've also witnessed absolute bullshit hippity-hoppity hypno-charlatanism from multiple teachers in Japan, China, and Taiwan. There is a difference. Just because some teachers have unusual skills doesn't mean all the deluded douchebags throwing themselves all over the place are the real deal.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:27 pm

But if it was filmed and some one posted it. What would they say, would you be called a deluded douchebag too

There are some who for what ever reason feel a need to fake something, just as in any field.

Why focus on it? why not look for or present those that
one feels has or represents what one has felt or even show ones self demoing it.

why this constant need to show what one feels is fake any way..

what does one learn or gain from this.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Andy_S on Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:01 pm

SNIP
really depends on the teacher and how they'er approached and when.
In a teaching environment you didnt feel it was kinda rude to interrupt her.

the better course would have been to talk with one of the students during a brake.
also if the teacher has no gate keepers then its even more pressure and kind of waste of time to deal with strangers.
SNIP

This was in Tsimshatsui Park about 10 years ago. I was in the park early in the morning, looking at all the stuff being practiced, which ranged from the dire to the excellent. One group caught my attention. It was a female master doing something that LOOKED a lot like Chen Taiji, but obviously was not. I had seen some of her students warming up earlier, and it was clear that some of them had pretty good background in CMA. So I hung around for half an hour and watched. Towards the end of the sessions, she was bouncing them around by holding our her arm.

One of the senior students had been eying me a bit suspiciously (I was sitting on a bench - this was, after all, a public park - nearby and had been watching for a while.) I smiled at him so as we had made eye contact, he came over. I asked him what they were doing and he told me it was a form of old longfist and the teacher was from the mainland. I asked if it would be feasible to feel the force that was bouncing the other students around and he said no in what I took to be a rather unfriendly way. I said OK and walked off.

TBH, I think my own behavior was exemplary, and this guy - who had been scowling throughout the entire session of practice and clearly took himself a bit seriously - was, I think pretty unfriendly and suspicious for no reason.

Ho hum.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:30 am

One of the senior students had been eying me a bit suspiciously (I was sitting on a bench - this was, after all, a public park - nearby and had been watching for a while.) I smiled at him so as we had made eye contact, he came over. I asked him what they were doing and he told me it was a form of old longfist and the teacher was from the mainland. I asked if it would be feasible to feel the force that was bouncing the other students around and he said no in what I took to be a rather unfriendly way. I said OK and walked off


sorry to hear your experience was less then good.

Some teachers are open others are not, kinda depends I guess on a lot of things.
Even in commercial schools. In the CMA gym I practiced in long ago in San Francisco,
when we had visitors depending on the visitors the instructors would just keep the class sitting in a horse stance until they got broad and left.

In Beijing, in one of the many parks many Chinese would stop by to look and watch us getting tossed and whatnot. They would come up to my teacher and ask if it was faked.
He would laugh, and say "yes its fake, they are faking it" this was in reference to come kong jin type of practices. They would laugh, he smiled, they left and we went back to practice.

We had other visitors, the teacher would tell one of his senor students to deal with it....Watching it was not good. as the unlucky person would get bounced around, thrown out and then handed off to other students so he could feel the work.

I was told this happened with some chen students who came by when the teacher wasnt there.
The older students handled them...they brought back their teachers a couple of days later...after watching my teacher they mentioned that there was nothing they could do....and left...wasnt exactly sure what that meant it was all in Chinese. My sense was that the arts where quite different maybe they felt what they had wouldn't work out to well on my teacher hard to say.

In the parks if one is watching intently as maybe you were considering the topic of this thread it might make what happened more understandable.

My classmate while in SF tended to treat all visitors as challenges, a bit unfair I felt but a lot of the people did just want to try him out.
this would be all styles doing what ever they wanted...

Zhao attracts players from all other styles as well as beginners with little or no prior training. At 52, he does no exercise or even forms. He just pushes hands with anyone and everyone who comes by. I have seen men in their prime, twenty years younger than Zhao and twice his weight, with years and years of formal training go rolling off with big grins on their face
and others who where not so happy... :-\
I had warned him about this, telling him its not china....some might come back here they use guns.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Daniel-san on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:25 am

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Re: Practical Method - Push Hands Challenges (Daqingshan)

Postby Ed Ladnar on Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:45 pm

Any thoughts on the "bouncing" at :40 and 1:25 in this video? The whole thing is pretty interesting.

https://youtu.be/UJibLajtjw0
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