Small things

[Spncr]

Regards body punching, and punching in general I would prefer to cause hurt and damage...

IME Systema explores all the ways punches can effect an opponent, even how to calm someone down by yes, punching them. This is perhaps where the confusion lies in the unfamiliar methodology.

Personally I have found these sort of drills to be immensely beneficial, by understanding the effects of different types of strikes through the use of other punching drills as well, one is able to punch with a mixture of qualities to effect your opponent in very specific ways. For example a punch could be 100% strike, or it could be 40%push/60%strike to get a desired effect on your opponents structure, say positioning him in such a way for a nasty finishing blow or perhaps to take them down safely and softly.

In short this drill that Rob shows is meant to teach you something, not everything, much like all other drills.

[cloudz]

Yea.. I don't really disagree with any of that. I have done a bit of Systema with Rob so I know they play around with different strikes. I'm not really criticizing the drill or Systema as such. I just thought the explanation of the reason for punching in the clip could be tweaked for the better - but that's opinion based I guess, so I'm not too bothered. More putting it out there. If people can see my point and understand it, then great.. If not, it's no big deal.

I realize you can't get "everything" across in a short clip, and that drills can and should vary and focus on different aspects..
I think there's an aspect of the drill presented in the clip that can be clearer defined. I'm not against using the fist at all for this, I use it myself sometimes. It feels better in some ways and the feedback seems cleaner/ purer. I think that may be down the aligning of the back hand surface with the forearm rather than using open palms for example to push. It (the palm) can feel awkward at times in comparison.

So there's a good reason to favour them for the drill. But for me that does not become an "application" of the drill -"the punch" It is probably being picky, but in my own way I am trying to be helpful here, because I count Rob as a friend in the martial arts and wanted to share my thoughts. It's a little thing, but sometimes context and what is greater clarity (to me anyway..) around drills can make a difference to how they are found useful (or not).

To cut it short I wouldn't try to explain these as fighting techniques in this drill rather only a tool for the drill, to get feedback and give a force.

[Ian]

...somewhat haphazard teaching of the famous-name folks in his art...

All the best guys I've met, their training is ever-evolving. IMO looking for something methodical and systematic is a bit of a waste of time.

As for targeting body punching for me, perhaps the liver, ribs and solar plexus are decent targets to cause pain and damage, but otherwise they are not greatly effective - IMO of course.

It's likely that I'm not understanding you correctly, but IME they're fight-stoppers.

[RobP2]

Hi George how's it going

Cheers for the feedback, Spncr has covered some of my response, but I'll probably use my next blog to answer them more fully.

"To cut it short I wouldn't try to explain these as fighting techniques in this drill rather only a tool for the drill, to get feedback and give a force"

That's exactly it, it's just one part of the jigsaw, but a small and important one. The application of the punch depends on circumstances and what you want to acheive - a training punch for a partner, a relaxing punch to help someone, a punch to disrupt structure, a deeper "internal" punch etc, etc. However it all starts from this basic work.

I find that a lot of people punch without knowing why - I've even asked this when guesting at workshops "why do you punch". Not many people give an answer beyond "because that's what you do". Also I find that people's "damaging" punches are sometimes not as powerful as they think, especially when people learn how to manage impact - which is another aspect of this work. There is a feedback loop to, say, hitting the pads or bag fast and hard, which gives you a "good feeling" but doesn't necessarily cross over to hitting a body. I think this work - and it's more developed later stages - fill that gap very well. Hope that explains my position a bit more, will try and rustle up another clip in the next couple of weeks

cheers mate

[cloudz]

Ian, the ones I mentioned I think can cause damage, I notice in the first few examples in the clip they all look like liver shots or to the ribs. Didn't watch any more.The middle abdomen area is quite well protected in terms of muscles, like the chest and unless it's a surprise shot I don't think it is as good a target as the ones I have already mentioned. I cant' really think of any others that are better targets that fall into your category of "fight stoppers". But please name them, rather than posting a highlight boxing reel of body shots..

My use of "Otherwise" - in other words other than those targets I named, I can't think of any others that may be "fight stoppers". Also you have to factor in the cumulative effects and tiredness of boxing matches. I'm not really too concerned with winning a boxing match with what I am talking about. Any shot anywhere with power can hurt or be painful to a degree, but in an altercation that I would be looking to train for I wouldn't be counting on a body shot as a fight stopper other that the target I mention and even then "fight stopper" is the wrong term. They are generally speaking below other targets for me, namely head target/jaw, maybe throat/neck and definitely groin. If you have different thought on that, great, by all means.

This isn't really about me being against well targeted body shots or even body shots in general if that's your opening and position in any given moment, take it. And if you are in a boxing match then you will score and you may contribute to a cumulative effect.

Let's not get too off topic here and beside the point. The point was against using body shots to move the opponent as was described in the clip and as well as relating that to the context of the drill, not against body shots generally speaking.

[cloudz]

Totally Rob, that's the sort of thing I was getting at. We understand each other perfectly on this I think.
Doing nicely thanks mate, you're looking well, cheers.

Your hammers must be putting a smile on your face hey

[Ian]

Ah ok, I misread. I thought you were saying that solar plexus and liver shots are decent but not greatly effective. Apologies.

Another one I like is the downwards teep to the bladder and pubic bone. Got that from Steve Morris, very effective.

[cloudz]

Yea Ian, I can see how that wording might have been taken that way also. I meant other than those I mentioned, those being my "good" targets so to speak and other targets apart from those not being that/as effective/damaging for punches.

Your one sounds a good tender spot, now if only I could lift my leg that high.

[I am...]

...somewhat haphazard teaching of the famous-name folks in his art...

All the best guys I've met, their training is ever-evolving. IMO looking for something methodical and systematic is a bit of a waste of time.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you said here, Ian--and if so, please correct me. But you won't make any real progress over the long term if your training is not systematic and methodical. Sure the best guys are ever-evolving in their training. But they are not haphazardly flitting from trend to trend. The best guys (and their coaches) look objectively at their skill sets, conditioning, lessons from previous fights, etc. and systematically assess strengths, weaknesses and gaps in training--then methodically work to build on the strengths, reduce the weaknesses and cover the gaps. If I can find a teacher/coach whose work demonstrates that kind of systematic approach, then I am going to train with them.

+1, that is how it is done.