Aikido

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Re: Aikido

Postby Ashura on Mon May 15, 2017 1:13 am

C.J.W. wrote:My view on techniques vs. body method "tanren" is somewhere in the middle.

While I agree it's true that in the end a high-level practitioner should become "formless," learning techniques should still be an integral part of training -- at least for beginners. If we think about it, those famous JIMA masters of the past all went through the stage where they had to meticulously learn hundreds of techniques. And that, when coupled with the "hush-hush" body method training done behind closed doors, is what allowed them to eventually reach the point where techniques were no longer needed, and that their aiki bodies were able to respond instinctively and create techniques upon contact.

Developing an aiki body is they key to building the power that drives the techniques, and the techniques are outward expressions of an aiki body -- two sides of the same coin.

On the other hand, if you've only done body training but not techniques, you may very well end up with an aiki body that you do not know how to use in fighting. How can you expect to be able to apply a proper choke hold or an ankle lock in a fight if you haven't practiced it countless times on a compliant partner first?


I am not sure to really understand what "hush-hush" means even though the sound is funny :) but I do think that this is a very well written post with a lot of good information in it.
Last edited by Ashura on Mon May 15, 2017 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby RobP3 on Mon May 15, 2017 1:39 am

C.J.W. wrote:On the other hand, if you've only done body training but not techniques, you may very well end up with an aiki body that you do not know how to use in fighting. How can you expect to be able to apply a proper choke hold or an ankle lock in a fight if you haven't practiced it countless times on a compliant partner first?


Simple, you build those techniques or "expressions of principle" into your body training. That way your application and method work develop alongside each other. The problem is more, IMHO, that some types of training are or have become way too formalised to allow the free expression necessary to work in such a way
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ashura on Mon May 15, 2017 2:26 am

RobP3 wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:On the other hand, if you've only done body training but not techniques, you may very well end up with an aiki body that you do not know how to use in fighting. How can you expect to be able to apply a proper choke hold or an ankle lock in a fight if you haven't practiced it countless times on a compliant partner first?


Simple, you build those techniques or "expressions of principle" into your body training. That way your application and method work develop alongside each other. The problem is more, IMHO, that some types of training are or have become way too formalised to allow the free expression necessary to work in such a way


IMHO, finding training partners willing to learn that way on a long term is even harder than the training per se.
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Re: Aikido

Postby RobP3 on Mon May 15, 2017 7:58 am

Ashura wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:On the other hand, if you've only done body training but not techniques, you may very well end up with an aiki body that you do not know how to use in fighting. How can you expect to be able to apply a proper choke hold or an ankle lock in a fight if you haven't practiced it countless times on a compliant partner first?


Simple, you build those techniques or "expressions of principle" into your body training. That way your application and method work develop alongside each other. The problem is more, IMHO, that some types of training are or have become way too formalised to allow the free expression necessary to work in such a way


IMHO, finding training partners willing to learn that way on a long term is even harder than the training per se.


I must've been lucky :)
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ashura on Mon May 15, 2017 10:44 am

RobP3 wrote:
I must've been lucky :)


You happy 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Re: Aikido

Postby C.J.W. on Mon May 15, 2017 6:45 pm

Ashura wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:My view on techniques vs. body method "tanren" is somewhere in the middle.

While I agree it's true that in the end a high-level practitioner should become "formless," learning techniques should still be an integral part of training -- at least for beginners. If we think about it, those famous JIMA masters of the past all went through the stage where they had to meticulously learn hundreds of techniques. And that, when coupled with the "hush-hush" body method training done behind closed doors, is what allowed them to eventually reach the point where techniques were no longer needed, and that their aiki bodies were able to respond instinctively and create techniques upon contact.

Developing an aiki body is they key to building the power that drives the techniques, and the techniques are outward expressions of an aiki body -- two sides of the same coin.

On the other hand, if you've only done body training but not techniques, you may very well end up with an aiki body that you do not know how to use in fighting. How can you expect to be able to apply a proper choke hold or an ankle lock in a fight if you haven't practiced it countless times on a compliant partner first?


I am not sure to really understand what "hush-hush" means even though the sound is funny :) but I do think that this is a very well written post with a lot of good information in it.


Hush-hush means highly secretive and only known to a few people. ;)
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Re: Aikido

Postby C.J.W. on Mon May 15, 2017 6:59 pm

RobP3 wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:On the other hand, if you've only done body training but not techniques, you may very well end up with an aiki body that you do not know how to use in fighting. How can you expect to be able to apply a proper choke hold or an ankle lock in a fight if you haven't practiced it countless times on a compliant partner first?


Simple, you build those techniques or "expressions of principle" into your body training. That way your application and method work develop alongside each other. The problem is more, IMHO, that some types of training are or have become way too formalised to allow the free expression necessary to work in such a way


True. That's what choreographed solo and pair training was meant to achieve in traditional Japanese and Chinese arts: to develop both the the internal body mechanics as well as the techniques. After you've acquired the techniques and the body, the next step would be to engage in some form of free sparring and grappling involving resistance. Sadly, however, this is where most traditional stylists fall short of the expectation.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Mon May 15, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ashura on Mon May 15, 2017 10:37 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
True. That's what choreographed solo and pair training was meant to achieve in traditional Japanese and Chinese arts: to develop both the the internal body mechanics as well as the techniques. After you've acquired the techniques and the body, the next step would be to engage in some form of free sparring and grappling involving resistance. Sadly, however, this is where most traditional stylists fall short of the expectation.


Sad but true.

Thank your for the hush hush translation. Do you mind if I borrow it? ;D

I have always been intrigued by this quote from Takeda Tokimune which is also relevant to the discussion:

Question: Did Sokaku go to Ayabe on Ueshiba Sensei´s invitation?

Actually, there were a number of people from the navy training at Mr Ueshiba´s dojo. All of the navy members had experience in sumo wrestling and were quite strong. Since Ueshiba would have had difficulty in handling such individuals he asked Sokaku Takeda Sensei to come. These men were huge, while Mr Ueshiba was smaller than me. I would imagine that he wasn´t able to pin them because he wasn´t using precise techniques. After all, it would be difficult using only aiki.
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