Aikido

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Re: Aikido

Postby WVMark on Wed May 31, 2017 9:48 am

Ashura wrote:
Chris Li wrote:FWIW, folks in Hawaii who trained in the 1950's were taught to throw straight down, not away. The throwing away model was popularized later on by the folks in Tokyo, led by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei. That's the source of Modern Aikido, not Morihei Ueshiba.





Here is apparently a restored version of the 1935 film recorded in Osaka.

I do see a lot of throw away techniques in this film.


You do realize that you just put up a video of Takeda's Daito ryu training as taught by Morihei Ueshiba, right? As Chris Li said, this is not Modern Aikido.

I don't have all the references handy, but I think:

1. 1935, Ueshiba was still issuing Daito ryu scrolls to his students.
2. 1935 was the last training session between Takeda and Ueshiba.
3. 1933-35, Ueshiba taught Asahi staff. They "coined" the name "Asahi-ryu Jujutsu" but it was Daito ryu they were learning.
4. 1936 was when Takeda took over the Asahi training. This marked the "public" split between Ueshiba and Takeda.

It's worth mentioning here that Takeda awarded Takuma Hisa the Menkyo Kaidan while never awarding Menkyo to Tokimune Takeda. But that's a separate topic. :)
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Re: Aikido

Postby Ashura on Wed May 31, 2017 12:44 pm

WVMark wrote:
You do realize that you just put up a video of Takeda's Daito ryu training as taught by Morihei Ueshiba, right? As Chris Li said, this is not Modern Aikido.

I don't have all the references handy, but I think:

1. 1935, Ueshiba was still issuing Daito ryu scrolls to his students.
2. 1935 was the last training session between Takeda and Ueshiba.
3. 1933-35, Ueshiba taught Asahi staff. They "coined" the name "Asahi-ryu Jujutsu" but it was Daito ryu they were learning.
4. 1936 was when Takeda took over the Asahi training. This marked the "public" split between Ueshiba and Takeda.

It's worth mentioning here that Takeda awarded Takuma Hisa the Menkyo Kaidan while never awarding Menkyo to Tokimune Takeda. But that's a separate topic. :)


I do realize that the film was taken in 1935 and while it might not be 100% modern aikido, it is very close to it. As I said, the movements are wider, you see Ueshiba reaching out his hand for his partner to grab it (something that you are taught never to do in Daito-ryu even if some actually do, no zanshin, extremely few pinning techniques. Is it so difficult to admit that Ueshiba had already begun to shape what he had learnt into something that suited him and that it was already different? Different does not necessarily means worse or better. At that point, Ueshiba was teaching his own art.

Tokimune said the following about ippon dori but it applies to all the techniques in Daito-ryu.

Would you talk about some of the basic Daito-ryu techniques like ippondori?

Ippondori is referred to as kogusoku in Ono-ha Itto-ryu, and a kodachi (short sword) is used. You thrust up from below when you are attacked by an opponent with a sword. In Daito-ryu, as an opponent swiftly attacks by grabbing you by the chest, you hold him down. The technique applies in situations where the enemy thrusts at you and you control him.

What is different from other schools is that you hold the opponent down using the knee. Then you grab the opponent's hair in order to cut off his head. This is true Daito-ryu technique. You may wonder, "What meaning does this have in this day and age?" But this is basic to Daito-ryu. If you hold an opponent down with your knee, both of your hands are free. Then you can cut his throat. You must remain alert until then. Even situations with multiple attackers can be handled with your free arms because one attacker has been pinned under your knee. This is the essence of Daito-ryu. If you hold an opponent down with your entire weight concentrated on your knee, the enemy cannot rise. Each and every technique is lethal. None of the techniques give the opponent any openings.

Daito-ryu teaching methods are completely different from those of other schools. Our techniques use real swords for serious combat. When Daito-ryu was used in the police department, the police gradually stopped practicing in this way, and they began to just gently hold the opponent down. Even during the Meiji era, people no longer controlled their enemies in order to stab them and cut off their heads. However, the essence of Daito-ryu is to keep alert until you have cut the enemy's throat. Thrusts must be made immediately. We strictly teach students of Daito-ryu these things. So practice is violent, and a little different from other kinds of practices or from just practicing softly with aiki.



1.Yes he did until a certain point and then kept the same pattern but changed the name of the school and cancelled any mention of Sokaku Takeda. But, how many students who receive those Daito-ryu scrolls actually used the name later? I could nor swear it but my guess is that no one did. Even Takuma Hisa felt more comfortable with the word aikido.
2. I do not know.
3. I think it was 1933-36. Let´s say that it was Daito-ryu Ueshiba-ha then.
4. I agree.

Sokaku never awarded his son and designed successor any kind of rank as opposed to some 40 individuals, this is right. Are you questioning Tokimune´s legitimacy? I think the subject need to be discussed. This is not an easy task and a lot of people are reluctant to adress this subject since it is a sensitive one. Depending on what one thinks about Tokimune´s actual skills in relation with aiki, the discussion might turn out interesting.

By the way, have ever seen this clip? A lot of good information in it.

See where there is no shape, hear where there is no sound.

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