Aikido

[WVMark]

Cite which part? There are a couple of topics in that paragraph. Formless? Solo training?

[Ah Louis]

I am terribly sorry, just the quote below.It would really be appreciated and helpful. Thank you in advance.

The Ueshiba Legacy

In fact, Sagawa, Kodo, Okamoto, and Ueshiba all said their art was formless. Not some set curriculum of techniques, but formless [citation needed please]. Then we find that Tokimune Takeda, Takuma Hisa, Kodo, Sagawa, and Ueshiba all had solo training exercises that did not get shown [citation needed please]. Where is their focus on techniques? They did not have it.[citation needed please]

[I-mon]

Thanks for the posts Mark. Fascinating.

[WVMark]

Ah Louis,
Here's a start on citations for formless of the arts. Mostly aikido but one from Sagawa regarding Takeda.

Aiki News Issue 018
"Ueshiba: There are about 3,000 basic techniques, and each of them has 16 variations ... so there are many thousands. Depending on the situation, you create new ones."

Aiki News Issue 062
"He told us, "Aikido originally didn't have any form. The movements of the body in response to one's state of mind became the techniques." " -- Shirata

"Since Aikido is formless, we move according to how we feel." -- Shirata

Shirata Sensei: We never practiced techniques in any specific order. It was not a practice where we were taught. As I told you before, Ueshiba had his own training. Therefore, he practiced techniques as he wanted. That was his training. Ueshiba Sensei's way of explaining techniques was first of all to give the names of kamisama (deities). After that, he explained the movement. He told us, "Aikido originally didn't have any form. The movements of the body in response to one's state of mind became the techniques.

Aiki News Issue 063
"Ueshiba Sensei didn't have techniques. He said: "There are no techniques. What you express each time is a technique." " -- Shirata

Aiki News Issue 065
"Sensei understood the word "takemusu" as the revelation of one of the kami. "Takemusu" is the basis for the creation of all things. Aikido represents the form which creates all things through the body. O-Sensei said, "Aiki is to teach the basis for the creation of budo in which techniques are born as one moves." So you have to understand the basis for the creation of techniques. The basis is kokyu power. There is nothing else. When you develop kokyu power, countless techniques emerge. You can't create techniques only by doing the forms of the past." -- Sunadomari

"If you teach form only, you end up only with an old-style martial art." -- Sunadomari

Aiki News Issue 074
Sagawa: Takeda Sensei's teaching method was always practical. He never taught us kata (forms).

Aikido Journal 103 (Vol 22, no 2)
Interview with David Lynch
Shioda Sensei, like many other former students of O-Sensei, felt that O-Sensei's teaching was unsystematic, and he therefore devised his own set of basic exercises that were intended to make the art easier for the average person to learn. These basic exercises (hiriki no yosei and shumatsu dosa, for instance) are not found in other dojos.

Aikido Shugyo by Gozo Shioda
As mentioned earlier, at the Ueshiba Dojo in the old days we didn't explicitly have any pre-set forms. The only thing the students could do was copy the techniques that Sensei performed on their own. In terms of instruction, the only thing we were told was to "become one with heaven and earth."

[WVMark]

You also have to remember that pre-war was not "aikido" as we know it. Ueshiba was teaching Daito ryu. So, those citations for pre-war times are in regards to Ueshiba teaching Daito ryu. If you look at Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa and their movements, techniques, etc, you'll find they are all the same. It's why the Japanese needed a different classification for them in 1942. Hence, the name "aikido" was branded. These students all learned from Takeda. You think they changed a whole lot in regards to how they taught? Aiki is formless as it changes the body. Once that's realized (and that aiki is NOT some technique, timing, body positioning, merging with the attacker, etc), then everything becomes crystal clear on why they said their art was formless.

[WVMark]

Peter Goldsbury mentioning solo training and formless (takemusu aiki) on Aikiweb.

PAG. There are many subjective accounts of how Morihei Ueshiba trained and what he taught, but I do not think that these accounts allow us to state categorically that this or that was how Ueshiba taught or trained. Apart from Doshu, who I think is in a special category, the Hombu instructor with whom I have discussed these issues the most is Hiroshi Tada. Like Tohei, H Tada was a student of Tempu Nakamura, but he seems to have been very careful as to what he taught in the Hombu and what he taught in his own dojo and in Italy. In other words, he seems to have accepted the idea that only certain things were to be taught or practiced in the Hombu, but also that the other things were to be practiced elsewhere. He teaches weapons in Italy, but never in the Hombu, and when I mentioned some details of a certain jo kata that I practiced in Italy to another Hombu instructor, he was very curious and wondered where Tada had learned it. Like other older Hombu instructors, Tada sets great store by solo training exercises and these seem to consist mainly of kokyu exercises of increasing sophistication and complexity. But he has never taught anything like pushing hands etc and I suspect that the occasion for seeing the results of all this kokyu training would be in basic aikido waza, like shoumen-uchi 1-kyou. This issue for me is which bit of Tada's training comes from Nakamura and which bit from Ueshiba -- and whether he could make such a distinction. Add to this Ellis Amdur's theory of Ueshiba's use of his students as ‘crash-test dummies' and you also have to entertain the possibility that he showed different things to different students -- and he showed this by having them take ukemi. You also have to entertain the possibility that the skills that Ueshiba possessed which could be interpreted as IP skills could be acquired by Ueshiba's students in various ways, but not necessarily from Ueshiba himself by a direct transmission.

and

PAG. I am not sure that acceptance is the right word here. Sufferance might be more appropriate. One of the yudansha who trains with the group I look after in the Netherlands attends the workshops of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa when they come to Europe. His aikido comes from another source, of course, but on one occasion a senior Hombu instructor stopped and asked him, "Why are you so strong?" The question was not meant in a negative sense at all and he was not talking about physical strength. The instructor knew exactly what he was seeing and I believe the older generation of instructors in Japan also know this. But, as you say, this knowledge is clandestine and limited to individuals. These individuals are in the Aikikai, but are dwindling in number. Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa used to visit our dojo regularly and I once asked an instructor why Doshu (the present Doshu, not Kisshomaru) was never invited. This was a few years ago and the answer was quite blunt: "He's too young and does not know enough."

I think Doshu is an active exponent of a certain interpretation of iemoto, but the great danger here is that aikido is not a koryu and does not have kata in the sense understood in a koryu. There is a sense that the waza can be seen as vehicles for the expression of creativity and this, to my mind, is what Morihei Ueshiba meant by Takemusu Aiki. He always showed waza, as did Takeda Sokaku, but seems to have presented them slightly differently to different deshi. So creativity can be understood in many ways. Unlike the present generation of Japanese martial arts exponents, Morihei Ueshiba also read the Chinese classics and was familiar with all the texts that are the foundation of Chinese internal arts. Recently I came across a scholarly work on yin-yang and its place in Chinese thought and culture. Even a quick read was enough to show that this is a complex and multi-faceted concept. We all know the question that a student asked Morihei Ueshiba and his answer, citing the knowledge of yin and yang. Ueshiba did not give any further explanation and left it to the students to grasp what he meant. The point is that he was probably familiar with the whole breadth and depth of the concept, but his students did not share this familiarity.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthrea ... 596&page=4

[WVMark]

"I believe he coupled this [sumo] with solo power training exercises, breathing coordinated with mindful attention to lines of tension and relaxation within the body that very likely were part of the Shimyo-ryu curriculum…" (Hidden In Plain Sight, Ellis Amdur, p. 87.)

This is in regards to Takeda.

[WVMark]

"Solo training seems to be a common link among Daito-ryu practitioners and the various methods of this training develop different types of internal strength. Such training can include: a) wringing / twisting / coiling of the body to develop the connective tissue; b) methods of breathing to generate "pressure", which builds power from the inside out; c) mental imagery and focused attention that causes subtle micro-adjustments of the nervous system that, in essence, "rewire" the body, so that it functions at increasing levels of efficiency, without unnecessary conflicts between extensor and flexor muscles, for example. Different practitioners of Daito-ryu, including Ueshiba, probably used different exercises and also probably trained in these aspects in different proportions. In this way, their abilities would have developed in different spheres." (HIPS, pp. 181-182.)

[Ah Louis]

As for the video, FWIW. I was told that the video's demonstrator is showing different techniques from at least 3 different Daito ryu systems, including Aikido.

[Ah Louis]

"Solo training seems to be a common link among Daito-ryu practitioners and the various methods of this training develop different types of internal strength. Such training can include: a) wringing / twisting / coiling of the body to develop the connective tissue; b) methods of breathing to generate "pressure", which builds power from the inside out; c) mental imagery and focused attention that causes subtle micro-adjustments of the nervous system that, in essence, "rewire" the body, so that it functions at increasing levels of efficiency, without unnecessary conflicts between extensor and flexor muscles, for example. Different practitioners of Daito-ryu, including Ueshiba, probably used different exercises and also probably trained in these aspects in different proportions. In this way, their abilities would have developed in different spheres." (HIPS, pp. 181-182.)

WVMark, I appreciated all your effort. I am sorry, please understand it is just simply I need solid evidence, like what you provided with Aikido. That is a great quote, though it is the author's opinion as he doesn't state it as fact. He uses these words "seems to be, probably" very responsibly separating his personal view from being taken as facts in his argument. Kudos, for that. Though unfortunately, I am in need of citation of fact that "solo" training was done by the Daito Ryu Masters you listed. Again, my sincerest apologies, and most grateful thank you for your time and effort.

[Taste of Death]

"Solo training seems to be a common link among Daito-ryu practitioners and the various methods of this training develop different types of internal strength. Such training can include...mental imagery and focused attention that causes subtle micro-adjustments of the nervous system that, in essence, "rewire" the body, so that it functions at increasing levels of efficiency, without unnecessary conflicts between extensor and flexor muscles, for example. (HIPS, pp. 181-182.)

Great posts, Mark. This is how we do it in Han Shi Yi Quan.

[WVMark]

"Solo training seems to be a common link among Daito-ryu practitioners and the various methods of this training develop different types of internal strength. Such training can include: a) wringing / twisting / coiling of the body to develop the connective tissue; b) methods of breathing to generate "pressure", which builds power from the inside out; c) mental imagery and focused attention that causes subtle micro-adjustments of the nervous system that, in essence, "rewire" the body, so that it functions at increasing levels of efficiency, without unnecessary conflicts between extensor and flexor muscles, for example. Different practitioners of Daito-ryu, including Ueshiba, probably used different exercises and also probably trained in these aspects in different proportions. In this way, their abilities would have developed in different spheres." (HIPS, pp. 181-182.)

WVMark, I appreciated all your effort. I am sorry, please understand it is just simply I need solid evidence, like what you provided with Aikido. That is a great quote, though it is the author's opinion as he doesn't state it as fact. He uses these words "seems to be, probably" very responsibly separating his personal view from being taken as facts in his argument. Kudos, for that. Though unfortunately, I am in need of citation of fact that "solo" training was done by the Daito Ryu Masters you listed. Again, my sincerest apologies, and most grateful thank you for your time and effort.

No problem asking for the solid evidence. It's actually kind of hard to come by ... written. Let me post something Peter Goldsbury wrote on Aikiweb:

I have asked Doshu and other Hombu teachers whether Morihei Ueshiba did IP training and the answer was yes, but with the rider that he never taught it: he left this type of training to students who perceived it and wanted to do it. The corollary was (is) that this type of training should be a complement to one's 'kihon' training, but not a substitute for it.

So, Ueshiba did Internal Power training (solo training) but didn't teach it ... to everyone. Now, of Takeda's students who got IP/aiki (Sagawa, Horikawa, Ueshiba, etc), Morihei Ueshiba sort of broke Takeda's primary rule: Don't teach the secrets to everyone -- Just pick one or two. Morihei Ueshiba was also a more famous figure. So, yes, we have more written information regarding Ueshiba and aikido. Much less with Sagawa, Kodo, and Daito ryu.

Unfortunately, if you're looking for more solid evidence ... that's going to be very hard to get. Ellis Amdur did a lot of research for his book, Hidden in Plain Sight (highly recommend), and you've read a little of what he's written. The Japanese hold onto their secrets tightly. Solo training for IP/aiki was most definitely one of those secrets.

[Ah Louis]

I think Aikido is fascinating. I liked the video narrator's comment on Japanese culture. How they believe in preservation of martial art as a means of respect.

[Ah Louis]

WVMark it looks I was composing a post and we posted past each other. Thank you for your comment. The Daito ryu masters do seem oddly conservative and overtly secretive then most. Getting facts then will be difficult.

I personally think these schools of Daito ryu should be more liberal and open with their facts. I say, allow the public to have access to the truth to stop misinformation and conjecture. Doesn't misinformation become misconceived as truth. I think by with-holding the facts presents an opportunity for the astute to take advantage of them when the are silent. Making the facts accessible to the public hasn't brought down any good Japanese martial art.

Facts are powerful weaponry, like the musket rifle had over the sword. Those who hung on to the sword instead of grabbing a musket never had a chance, defeat was guaranteed. It is a disservice that solid evidence is so scarce and hard to find for these schools, allowing for misinformation to be so abundant and damaging.

[WVMark]

Regarding Daito ryu and the secrets, I'll point everyone to the mainline Daito ryu group. Sokaku Takeda's son Tokimune Takeda has a lineage of Daito ryu which Katsuyuki Kondo is now head of.

http://www.daito-ryu.org/en/kondo-katsuyuki.html

When my teacher Tokimune was still active and in good health, many of his students from all over Japan came to Abashiri once a year to take part in the annual Headquarters meeting. Several times, when I came to participate in the headmaster direct transmission seminars (soke jikiden kai) that were always held on these occasions, the meeting was divided into two groups, one taught by Tokimune sensei himself, the other taught by me acting as his instructional representative. Naturally, the day before these my teacher would go over with me in detail about what he wanted me to teach on his behalf, and he always told me that I must not teach the true techniques that I had learned from him. Even in regard to the very first technique taught in Daito-ryu, ippondori, I was strictly prohibited from teaching the real version I had learned directly from Tokimune sensei, and was told to teach only the version of ippondori he always taught in his own Daitokan dojo.

My teacher explained his purpose in this by saying, "What will you do if you teach people the true techniques and the next day they leave the school? The oral and secret teachings of Daito-ryu will flow outside of the school." He also said, "Out of a thousand people, only one or two are genuine students. Find them out and teach them what is real; there is no need to teach such things to the rest." My teacher only taught real techniques to a person if he could ascertain, from his questions, technical and physical ability, apprehension, and diligence, that they carried a sincere and genuine attitude. He inherited this method of teaching from Sokaku sensei.

Here you have the head of mainline Daito ryu telling everyone out in the open that only a select few will be taught the secrets, what is real.