Figure Eight Work

[Bodywork]

I'm not going to comment on the video

But you just did

accept to say there is a figure eight model is for a continuous circle (spiral, really) to be occurring -within- the body without a change or stopping point. Albeit empty hand or continuous cutting with weapons, it is a powerful tool. Many have heard of it and talked about it. It is VERY difficult to do and requires certain body parts to be highly trained. This video has nothing to do with that saught after skill.

I'm happy to agree that this work has nothing to do with your "saught" after skill. In fact my upcoming workshop will detail how and why

It's not MY figure eight, Rob.
I saught it out much like many others have. I thought it should be pointed out for newbies and others that it is a classic model and not what is presented here.
I've never heard someone speak against such a valuable tool that many ICMA master class guys speak highly of. Why would you do that?

[RobP2]

It's not MY figure eight, Rob.
I saught it out much like many others have. I thought it should be pointed out for newbies and others that it is a classic model and not what is presented here.
I've never heard someone speak against such a valuable tool that many ICMA master class guys speak highly of. Why would you do that?

I'm not speaking against anything, I'm saying that this is not the classic ICMA model, as I longer practice ICMA. So what people claim on forums, or stories of days gone by are of marginal interest to me. Having said that it's always interesting to see video of people applying "special skills" particularly in freestyle work. In the meantime I'm lucky to work with people who are open and accessible, who have an extensive breadth and depth of knowledge and experience and whose general approach to training and teaching suits me very nicely

[Greg J]

Bodywork, it seems like you are talking about something other than what is being shown in the video. To my eyes, what is shown in the video are different figure 8 movements and their applications. What you referenced in your response was

a figure eight model for a continuous circle (spiral, really) to be occurring -within- the body

To me this sounds more like a meditation or visualization practice. How does this connect to what was originally posted? Not trying to be snarky - I'm truly interested.

Best,
Greg

[Bodywork]

It's not MY figure eight, Rob.
I saught it out much like many others have. I thought it should be pointed out for newbies and others that it is a classic model and not what is presented here.
I've never heard someone speak against such a valuable tool that many ICMA master class guys speak highly of. Why would you do that?

I'm not speaking against anything, I'm saying that this is not the classic ICMA model, as I longer practice ICMA. So what people claim on forums, or stories of days gone by are of marginal interest to me. Having said that it's always interesting to see video of people applying "special skills" particularly in freestyle work. In the meantime I'm lucky to work with people who are open and accessible, who have an extensive breadth and depth of knowledge and experience and whose general approach to training and teaching suits me very nicely

Rob
I train with many Systema people. All skills are specialized skill. It is what the very name implies. You're a systema guy. Aren't Ryobkov and Vlad working a specialized skill set? Of course they are. The more classic figure eight involving kua, waist and dantian is another skill set. As we agree it is different from the videos. This was why I didn't comment on the videos. There are all sorts of skill sets out there. They each have their purposes. People enjoy what they like.
Regards
Dan

[Yugen]

Bodywork, it seems like you are talking about something other than what is being shown in the video. To my eyes, what is shown in the video are different figure 8 movements and their applications. What you referenced in your response was

a figure eight model for a continuous circle (spiral, really) to be occurring -within- the body

To me this sounds more like a meditation or visualization practice. How does this connect to what was originally posted? Not trying to be snarky - I'm truly interested.

Best,
Greg

nope, Dan is referring to actual figure eight movement of the hip, kua, spiraling, getting the tissue and connections to work together that help facilitate whole body connection and internal power. it's actual exercises of body movement that extend into application.

The video that the thread title refers to, as I see it, applies to figure eight patterns of movement in space in regards to footwork and arm movement..? So in short, it's the descriptive title ... it's figure 8 pattern application, footwork etc in Systema. If it involves an internal body practice it doesn't seem apparent.

I THINK that's what Dan is trying to point out. So for a newb coming to this thread they can understand the difference and don't confuse the two practices as being the same thing. Particularly if they read about figure 8s in TCMA books.

[Bodywork]

Exactly correct, Ryan. We need to be careful. The Chinese and Japanese for the most part don't teach us. Other teachers; Asian or otherwise, are messing with things and mixing them up. Its too easy for students to make experts out of teachers who are hardly qualified, just because of their martial skills and a knowledge greater than the students. That doesn't make the teacher right, does it? Too many teachers get sucked into having to play the, "expert" in a role they were not qualified to step into.
It's much safer for a teacher not to point to themselves.
It's also much safer for us to look at the material presented as not belonging to a particular, face.
Once we realize the material spans generations and cultures, and understand it is there for all of us, and often the teacher is but an obstacle...
The only questions that remain are:
Why didn't we know?
And what are WE going to do about it?
At a certain point our understanding had to be in our own hands and we are responsible for it.
That was a little bit of a thread drift... sorry
Dan

[RobP2]

Yep, it's not really anything to do with the OP, which quite clearly states it shows the RMA approach to Fig 8 work. Maybe you could start another thread on the problems in Chinese / Japanese Arts?

The work shown in the clips is entry level, basic patterns. We are running a workshop in as couple of weeks time on the next stage of training, spiral movement. Just so no-one becomes confused I'll state clearly again this is the RMA / Systema approach to spiral movement. It is practical, effective, has a clear learning progression and is accessible. Anyone coming will have the chance to work with people from a wide range of backgrounds. We will no doubt be covering some massage / manipulation work too

http://www.systemauk.com/shop/sbooking.html

[Bodywork]

I know its a systema approach, and I have seen the higher level work.
But RMA? I have met guys who train in RMA, in Russia...who strongly... Very strongly...state systema has nothing at all to do with RMA. Its systema. Not that it has to be connected to RMA, just that lessor, better, or equal, it doesn't really matter... it just isn't RMA.
I have no opinion on the matter either way, other than to say I am a supporter of systema for what it is.

[jaime_g]

I'm a scholar of western martial arts, hemac member, and I have to agree with that. System is not a russian historical martial art. I'm not saying it is not a great style or method, just modern stuff.

[RobP2]

BTW there are a ton of clips on Youtube showing various types of Russian Fig 8 work, some exercise based, some weapons, some cultural.

[jaime_g]

Some examples of RMA Stuff (Russian fencing had a very strong french influence)

http://www.reenactor.ru/ARH/Drill/Pravila_Fext_1843.pdf
http://fechtmeister.ru/biblio/Siverbrik.pdf
http://www.scarb.ru/literatura/metodich ... j-sluzhby/

[Yugen]

Yep, it's not really anything to do with the OP, which quite clearly states it shows the RMA approach to Fig 8 work. Maybe you could start another thread on the problems in Chinese / Japanese Arts?

The work shown in the clips is entry level, basic patterns. We are running a workshop in as couple of weeks time on the next stage of training, spiral movement. Just so no-one becomes confused I'll state clearly again this is the RMA / Systema approach to spiral movement. It is practical, effective, has a clear learning progression and is accessible. Anyone coming will have the chance to work with people from a wide range of backgrounds. We will no doubt be covering some massage / manipulation work too

http://www.systemauk.com/shop/sbooking.html

Right... but under the forum title is says "Internal Martial Arts Forum", and your OP doesn't really state whether the exercises and drills are internal or not, so it's correct IMO to point out if someone thinks its NOT an internal exercise. No one's saying it's a bad set, system, etc. I think it's just being clear to try to distinguish what is internal and what is not if this forum is to be a resource for learning.

[Greg J]

Bodywork, it seems like you are talking about something other than what is being shown in the video. To my eyes, what is shown in the video are different figure 8 movements and their applications. What you referenced in your response was

a figure eight model for a continuous circle (spiral, really) to be occurring -within- the body

To me this sounds more like a meditation or visualization practice. How does this connect to what was originally posted? Not trying to be snarky - I'm truly interested.

Best,
Greg

nope, Dan is referring to actual figure eight movement of the hip, kua, spiraling, getting the tissue and connections to work together that help facilitate whole body connection and internal power. it's actual exercises of body movement that extend into application.

The video that the thread title refers to, as I see it, applies to figure eight patterns of movement in space in regards to footwork and arm movement..? So in short, it's the descriptive title ... it's figure 8 pattern application, footwork etc in Systema. If it involves an internal body practice it doesn't seem apparent.

I THINK that's what Dan is trying to point out. So for a newb coming to this thread they can understand the difference and don't confuse the two practices as being the same thing. Particularly if they read about figure 8s in TCMA books.

Thanks for clarifying, Yugen!

My own background is primarily the Filipino Martial Arts, where (as Punong Guro Marc Denny likes to put it) "consistent terminology across categories is prohibited." So having two different techniques from different styles or arts called the same thing is not that unusual. For me, what I read in the OP's title ("Figure 8 Work") and description "a preview of [...] the Systema perspective" matched what was being demonstrated.

Still, as Yugen points out, knowing that there are other approaches to cultivating/ training this pattern, and indeed more advanced approaches within Sistema is helpful.

Best,
Greg

[middleway]

Yugen,

Rob has been a regular poster here for many years, almost everyone knows he is a Systema instructor. As for its relevance to Internal Arts, don't let the title of this board fool you, we have FMA, IMA, MMA, RMA and JMA stylists here posting regularly and as such each post should be viewed on its own merit IMO. Rob has been quite clear about what his work is, where it is from, and how it should be viewed.

Cheers for continuing to put your work out there Rob.

happy training all.

Chris.

[Yugen]

Thanks for clarifying, Yugen!

My own background is primarily the Filipino Martial Arts, where (as Punong Guro Marc Denny likes to put it) "consistent terminology across categories is prohibited." So having two different techniques from different styles or arts called the same thing is not that unusual. For me, what I read in the OP's title ("Figure 8 Work") and description "a preview of [...] the Systema perspective" matched what was being demonstrated.

Still, as Yugen points out, knowing that there are other approaches to cultivating/ training this pattern, and indeed more advanced approaches within Sistema is helpful.

Best,
Greg

I was first taught figure 8 hip movement in Shorinji Kempo, but not in internal body connection manner Dan is referring to. Additionally I've seen it referenced as pattern movement that Systema is referring to. I stand corrected, thanks, the OP title was descriptive by stating a "Sytema Perspective", but is it an internal perspective became the question?

To knock Dan (bodywork) a little, he suffers too much of that Northeast USA communication thing where yelling, talking loud and waving your hands is just friendly conversation!