Zhang Chang Xin Liuhebafa

[Strange]

心意本無法，有法是虛無；虛無得自然，無法不容恕。
放之彌六合，包羅小天地；釋家為圓覺，道家說無為。
有象求無象，不期自然至；要學心意功，先從八法起。
養我浩然氣，遍身皆彈力；見首不見尾，無象亦無意。

[suckinlhbf]

It is really a tough one but is the key to the art. As lhbf song say 六合八法始於心。 The five word Song starts with 心意本無法，有法是虛無。 I think how the 心 mean to a lhbf practitioner does a great part on what they get.

[Oliver 101]

What prompted that question? Zhao was supposedly a phenomenal fighter, and was even said to have beaten Sun Lu Tang, which seems to upset many people. Though he was a student of Wang Xiang Zhai he also fought to be number one (in general), and wanted to beat his own teacher Wang. In 1928, Zhao and Zhang competed at the 3rd All-China Wushu Game, where their teacher Wang introduced them to Wu. Zhao thought the only way he might be able to beat Wang would be to learn from someone who had already bested Wang, and so sought out Wu along with some others. This is from my website:

Wang's student Zhao Dao Xin was a young but seasoned and uncontested fighter who was always ready to prove his skills. He founded the Shanghai Youth Association 上海青年會 in Shanghai's Eight Immortal Bridge District 八仙橋 where he taught kung fu. In 1932, he had to leave for his home town of Tianjin 天津 for his father's funeral, and called upon Wu Yi Hui to take over the school. When Wang Xiang Zhai heard that Wu was teaching, he sent many of his top students to Wu for deeper training, among whom were Han Xing Qiao 韓星橋, Han Xing Yuan 韓星樵, and Zhang Chang Xin. When Zhao returned, he joined his colleagues in training Liuhebafa under Wu. Later on in life, Zhao founded his own style called Xin Hui Zhang 心會掌.

Zhao who greatly admired Wu's character presented him with an engraving that read:
" Master Wu is exceptionally talented, but without need to show off or perform his skills, not needing the approval or praise of others. "

Thank you for your detailed answer, drifting. Very interesting.
I asked because i come from the Zhao Daoxin Lineage, and in our lineage it is said that Zhao was also one of Wu Yihuis most accomplished students, although he didn´t teach Liuhebafa.
He just integrated parts into his Xinhuizhang.

[Wanderingdragon]

And the worst are my experience with some of the lhbf people.

Case in point, five word song in Chinese characters only, exhibits only the mastery of a language, yet denotes no true understanding or skill in the art. It only serves to set apart. " to stand apart is to exclude ones self from true understanding "

[suckinlhbf]

There are so many different meanings come with a single Chinese character. I hope there are somebody out there can truly understand the five word song. It has messed me up for years and years, and it makes me know for sure that I am suck.

[Wanderingdragon]

I know for sure, to understand the five word song, one must truly understand the body.

[suckinlhbf]

It could be a good start to look closely at the body structure and posture of the old masters, and see is there anything can get from them. But unfortunately, mirror doesn't work all the time, and not for everybody.

[Wanderingdragon]

It has been noted in previous discussions, there is the public form and the reality. Many times the old masters issued books purely for financial reasons, as much as today marketing their wares. Also in still photography the postures are always large and elongated to give the idea of the movement, much like the difference between learning the form and using the form, yet it is even harder to determine just from the picture. The five word song takes deep understanding, and is helpful only when daily practice is high enough to equate the subtlties in the imagery of philosophy with the realities and nuance of movement. How clearly can one understand " the motion of still water " without knowing motion and stillness.

[suckinlhbf]

I don't believe in the public form, secret form, or the reality. I see the forms as a set of movements, and it is the something within the movements that I would try to find. Pictures show something, and videos tells more. Yes, we can twist the form but can't really put in different ingredients into the movements that we use to do. Meanings of the five word song change with our depth in knowledge. It is the same as looking at the pictures and videos. Like, if I don't know Chinese, I won't know what the five word song in Chinese means. Even I know some Chinese, I would have get it wrong. I never get them right that's what I can say.

[Wanderingdragon]

Public/Private, I'm only going by what has been told on previous threads, though I agree and I have mentioned, in the past, to do the practice incorrectly intentionally would only serve to ingrain bad habits, yet I also have said you can learn nothing by watching if you do t already know something. I think the same for the study of the five word song.

[suckinlhbf]

Yes, so, share, exchange, and crack the code.

[Wanderingdragon]

I have never not shared, in observation, I hold back nothing, in comment or critique, however it is taken. If I post a clip of what I do, it is exactly that, and anything I post is in seeking further understanding, and in posting any video I am seriously seeking critique and constructive criticism.
I will only stand by one hard cold fact unwaveringly, internal principle, never deviates from what is natural and that which is natures way can always be proven.
Something as simple as , if the elbow rises beyond the natural plane of the shoulder it will affect the breathing, it is because it causes one to be reaching, the stretch is not part of natural alignment, as such it weakens the structure. A right angle is a dead angle and anything greater is a weakness.

[Strange]

心意本無法，有法是虛無；虛無得自然，無法不容恕。
Xinyi in actuality has no methods; if there are any it is in emptiness; in emptiness one is natural; (but) if there is no methods it should not be condoned

放之彌六合，包羅小天地；釋家為圓覺，道家說無為。
released in fullness of 6 alignments; encompassing within the heaven and earth; Buddhists say a Complete Understanding; Daoists say its Non-Action.

有象求無象，不期自然至；要學心意功，先從八法起。
Where there is Form we try to achieve None; Reaching (our skills) without Anticipation; If you wish for Xinyi Skill; you must start from the Eight Methods

養我浩然氣，遍身皆彈力；見首不見尾，無象亦無意。
Cultivate my Righteous Energy, my Entire Body replete with Spring Force; (Like a Dragon) Where the head is seen the tail is not; No Form and No Intent

[suckinlhbf]

No form and no intent is the best for me. Doing nothing and doing something at the same time. Getting crazy.

[Strange]

收放勿露形，鬆緊要自主；策應宜守默，不偏亦不倚。
Keeping in or Releasing out no shape must be shown; Loose or Tight must be controlled at will; Counters should be devised with a quiet mind; there is no veer nor slant

視不能如能，生疏莫臨敵；動時把得固，一發未深入；
See the impossible as possible; do not face the enemy when lax in training; In movement structure must be held firm; a strike should not go deep*

審機得其勢，乘勢擊與顧；剛在他力前，柔乘他力後。
Scanning for opportunities make advantage; with advantage strike and defend simultaneously; apply Hard Force before his strength; apply Soft after his strike

彼忙我靜待，攻守任君鬥；步步占先機，時時要留意。
When opponent is busy i shall wait quietly; Attack or defend as you wish; Seizing the Initiative every step of the way; (One must be) Cautious at all times

* meaning: do not be fully extended; i find good to keep 10-15% of full extension.
of course this may vary according to individual body type and movement style.
you must experiment yourself