Figure 8 in IMA Silk Reeling

[D_Glenn]

Here's some stuff I had written in a PM last March, thought you all might like to see it:

A: He doesn't understand that my point about keeping the pelvis level, while moving the hips, is what allows you to develop the hip's striking power.

What I'm talking about is a figure 8 or infinity sign rather, that is on a horizontal plane, so if you were looking down at your two hips and pelvis directly from above, it's the movement of both hips that can make a sort of figure 8, but imagine if there was a pencil inbetween your two hips, at Huiyun point, when you move both hips and legs when doing standing-in-place-striking drills, that pencil will be drawing a flat infinity sign. If the stance is narrow this will be like a sideways figure 8, but the wider stance will be an elongated infinity sign.

The top of pelvis/ iliac crests and shoulders staying level throughout the movement, letting the pelvis move up and down, even slightly, only disperses the power of the legs, and you will never find the real power.

Q: So if I understand you correctly,the hips move left and right on a horizontal plane while the shoulders and pelvis stay level. And what about the knees?


A: So, say in striking-in-place drills, the feet are stationary, but both of the whole legs move as the pelvis is rotating from one side to the other side around the central vertical axis ( this rotation is about <90 degrees). The hips and knees are actually moving relatively straight forward and backward if you were staying in the middle, but the whole of the central axis is moving side to side as it's moving a little more over the front foot. The legs are like piston arms and the hip joint are the cams. Letting the pelvis move up and down/ not kept level, is like an automobile engine not being properly mounted onto the frame.
So the 2 knee and hip positions is Deng and Beng Li, and in shun li the front leg is Beng while the back leg is Deng, Ni Li it's vice versa. Han Li or Ting Li is whether the spine is hollowing or upright but it can only be one or the other.


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[windwalker]

edited

[D_Glenn]

Really?

A 40 minute video that you've already posted at least a dozen times.

FMS

[windwalker]

Really?

A 40 minute video that you've already posted at least a dozen times.

FMS

wow,,,you would rather explain it then show something....

of course

let me fix it....

done

[D_Glenn]

Maybe if you put a time of the video to watch, like @27:36 or something. If I watched that video every time you posted it, never with any reference to what we are looking for, or time, or why we're watching it, if I watched your response to a discussion board, hours and hours of my life would have been wasted on your video reply!

SMR

[D_Glenn]

And yes, on a text based discussion forum I would rather write about things over watching shitty 3-D animations. Call me crazy.

[windwalker]

And yes, on a text based discussion forum I would rather write about things over watching shitty 3-D animations. Call me crazy.

ya know I try really.

the point would have been or was, that "you" with all your translations might have used it to point to some segment that you felt "illustrated" what you either posted or "translated"

Its not "text based" in case you havent noticed "utube" does very well, even you have posted clips to help "illustrate" a point.

it is what is is....

I'm out,,,carry on...

d

[D_Glenn]

^ Alright, I watched the video and there's nothing even close to what I'm talking about.

As for what is shown in that video...

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[Doc Stier]

Dammit! You kids get along now. Sheesh!

[Greg J]

In the "Figure 8" thread, Dan/ Bodywork was helping us understand what Internal Figure 8 training was / wasn't.

The acceleration offered by winding around and with the bones as well as opening and closing produces an incredible central equilibrium, out of which you create power-bone breaking, knockout power- while retaining that equilibrium.

Dan, am I mistaken in my read that the purpose of this internal training is to develop balance / equilibrium and to be able to generate knockout power? If so, what are the advantages to this type of training versus "simpler" methods of power generation like these: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/1 ... power.html

Or balance: http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-tech ... ng-balance

I am not trying to challenge the benefit of the internal training you describe. I am truly interested in learning more about it! However, I am left wondering what benefit there is to a practice that takes years to learn and even longer master if the end results (in this case, knockout power and balance) can be achieved more quickly using more conventional Boxing or MA approaches.

OTOH, if this type of training is done in conjunction with more "external" power/ balance training perhaps it has a synergistic effect?

Best,
Greg

[Yugen]

In the "Figure 8" thread, Dan/ Bodywork was helping us understand what Internal Figure 8 training was / wasn't.

The acceleration offered by winding around and with the bones as well as opening and closing produces an incredible central equilibrium, out of which you create power-bone breaking, knockout power- while retaining that equilibrium.

Dan, am I mistaken in my read that the purpose of this internal training is to develop balance / equilibrium and to be able to generate knockout power? If so, what are the advantages to this type of training versus "simpler" methods of power generation like these: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/1 ... power.html

Or balance: http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-tech ... ng-balance

I am not trying to challenge the benefit of the internal training you describe. I am truly interested in learning more about it! However, I am left wondering what benefit there is to a practice that takes years to learn and even longer master if the end results (in this case, knockout power and balance) can be achieved more quickly using more conventional Boxing or MA approaches.

OTOH, if this type of training is done in conjunction with more "external" power/ balance training perhaps it has a synergistic effect?

Best,
Greg

From my limited knowledge and experience the answer is simple... battlefield vs sports competition ring. What Dan's referring to is informed by wearing armor and training with weapons. Extend that experience to historical analysis of hand to hand combat with armor and weapons for battles that lasted all day or many days long.

The conventional boxing training is designed to go for 3 minute bursts with rest in between. So it's quite efficient to train that way and leads to faster results in achieving the objective of winning in the ring. But take that boxer and put armor on him and swing a weapon and see how long he lasts.

Internals training was ingrained in life long training to protect home and family during a time without guns.

Now that being said, boxing in and of itself is effective self-defense too for modern times. So ultimately, for IMA practitioners like me, I view the body as a laboratory to experiment with and try to learn how to maximize efficiency, power and combative ability that lasts well into old age thru the training methods Dan is describing.

[jaime_g]

If so, what are the advantages to this type of training versus "simpler" methods of power generation like these: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/1 ... power.html

Or balance: http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-tech ... ng-balance

It's a different thing. "Normal" training works well, but it is not the same.

OTOH, if this type of training is done in conjunction with more "external" power/ balance training perhaps it has a synergistic effect?

No I used to do powerlifting. My 500lb back squat didnt help me with this stuff when I met Dan, so I dropped weights.

[Ah Louis]

However, I am left wondering what benefit there is to a practice that takes years to learn and even longer master if the end results (in this case, knockout power and balance) can be achieved more quickly using more conventional Boxing or MA approaches.

Best,
Greg

Greg made a great comment. I spent years buried under Taiji fajin explanations that really was the same principles physics explains in so much less time. I was told from a sifu in another ICMA it will take years to learn a powerful punch, which translated to me paying him more money for lessons over the years, clever he was. Generating torque through gross body movement without losing balance is what a K.O. punch is. A person doesn't have to well trained or understand all the expert Ivory Tower internal stuff. You can still lose your balance or not be on the best balance to deliver a K.O. I will show all that probably embarrassing all those Ivory Tower experts having them rethink all they think they know about K.O. punching in the videos I am going to post below.

I see little help throwing on the labels of internal or external on an effective K.O. I see synergy. In the video I am about to post shows how easy and naturally the body moves to generate power for a K.O. The guys in the clip are not trained martial artists or boxers. More than likely they picked up some idea of how to hit outside formal instruction, or trial in error in fights. Here we see how easy it is to see the "untrained" deliver a K.O. out.

@ 0:37

Here we have untrained woman generating enough power to deliver a K.O. punch. The first clip it is very clear the woman don't know how to punch and they take practice swings. But, when it is time to deliver the goods, they automatically move correctly to generate solid powerful punches. It was instinct taking over.

@27

This clip shows a woman delivering a K.O. punch. She isn't trained on how to punch. She may have been of balance a bit, but she also instinctively delivers a K.O.




To wrap it up, there is a huge assumption being made by some in ICMA who talks balance. ICMA preference is to keep both feet stable on the ground. Kicks, if any, are not targeted to the head for a K.O. Staying on balance is a big thing. Anyone in the kicking arts ECMA knows, you can stand on one leg, not having the greatest stability, but being decently balanced and still deliver a kick to the head and get a K.O. Just ask Holm who delivered a vicious K.O. kick to Rousey.

It doesn't take years, a fallacy I suppose to generate dependency of the student on the teacher for life. A very common relationship upheld in CMA that can often develop into a money pit. The benefit then is the teacher's.

[Dmitri]

I see little help throwing on the labels of internal or external on an effective K.O. I see synergy.

They're not just empty labels. They indicate very, VERY different training methods, which produce, accordingly, very different results. Yes, there is some small overlap between the two -- I've met very good "external" guys who exhibited SOME of the "proper IMA" traits without having ever trained them, but that overlap seems incidental; it is very small and varies greatly from person to person. Guys who train (only) internal stuff can do many things that are simply unavailable to "external" guys -- much like external guys can do some things the IMA guys can't reproduce without specific training, like good high kicks for example. Which traits are more important to someone to train/develop is that person's choice.

But I'm not seeing the term "synergy" as being applicable here.

As for KOs -- I can have a 7-year-old KO you (given proper conditions/setup), and at the same time we see professional boxers unload ludicrous amounts of power into other boxers' jaws to very little effect. KO, in an of itself, relates to "IMA vs. EMA" subject less than apples relate to oranges.

[Ah Louis]

I see little help throwing on the labels of internal or external on an effective K.O. I see synergy.

They're not just empty labels. They indicate very, VERY different training methods, which produce, accordingly, very different results. Yes, there is some small overlap between the two -- I've met very good "external" guys who exhibited SOME of the "proper IMA" traits without having ever trained them, but that overlap seems incidental; it is very small and varies greatly from person to person. Guys who train (only) internal stuff can do many things that are simply unavailable to "external" guys -- much like external guys can do some things the IMA guys can't reproduce without specific training, like good high kicks for example. Which traits are more important to someone to train/develop is that person's choice.

I'm not seeing the term "synergy" as being applicable here.

As for KOs -- I can have a 5 your old KO you (given proper conditions/setup), and at the same time we see professional boxers unload ludicrous amounts of power into other boxers' jaws to very little effect. KO, in an of itself, relates to "IMA vs. EMA" subject less than apples relate to oranges.

You might have spent years believing there is a separation, a polarity of internal and external. And that some how internal is superior. That internal skills are some how supernatural, and not believe all those terms and labels are a result of poor understanding of anatomy hundreds of years ago. If you believe this way, it is a very expensive belief, superstitious, archaic, and use politically in CMA. I know, I have been there.


The synergy is the holistic look at principles and the body's movement. The human body doesn't function on internal and external movements as laid out by CMA. We have voluntary and involuntary movements that work together, being without one or the other you don't function or function well.

The fig 8 pattern is a movement inherent to human beings that wasn't labeled with an "8" until use westerners identified it with our numbers. The other part of the label being "figure" is also from the west. A very common term in ice skating. The fig 8 is universal, the hips all play a role. The fig 8 isn't universal in all application. Ice skating doesn't apply it the same way as martial arts. What we really should be concerned about is the result and not the Ivory Tower cerebral babble.

How well in a fight does anyone, no matter how much they train or how cerebral they sound, pull off the perfect fig 8 for the beauty pageant judges. It is a concept that doesn't make or brake a fight.

Knowing how either psoas muscle works to deliver the optimum fig 8 movement. Or, how the fascia tissue works get the right precise power in the movement doesn't matter. You don't need to know that minutia that hasn't be proven, to be effective at it.

I am not going to tell you, your opinion is wrong. I am not in the business of verbally trying to bitch slap each other's ego in an internet argument looking for a K.O. I am just saying internal and external had a place once. But, now it is all about marketing and politics.