Figure 8 in IMA Silk Reeling

[Michael Babin]

I think the figure 8 in the Chen Yu clip is very clear [if you're used to looking for it] and that kind of rather subtle bodywork is often what allows better experts to look relatively effortless in what they are doing with a partner who is less used to that kind of whole body movement.

Even working one-on-one with experienced students I still find it hard to get them to see the difference between moving one's feet and moving one's weight. Getting them to co-ordinate the actions of a figure 8 in the shoulders/arms with the one in the hip basin is even tougher.

Those used to doing wrestling and judo [in my limited experience] often seem to catch this idea somewhat faster than those used to doing striking as in the Chinese martial arts.

All fascinating stuff and exploring it with partners is what has kept me practising for forty odd years.

[D_Glenn]

Hi D_Glenn,

I can't really comment most of your post as my whole knowledge of Yin style Bagua is what is on the official site and the youtube clips. I do have an utmost respect for He Jinbao, though. He looks like a formidable martial artist and the dedication he shows to preserving the style is to be applauded.

However, I cannot really tie my head around this part that is not really style specific:

it's a more physical figure 8, where as ours is only a figure 8 if you imagine a pencil and piece of paper.

As Dmitri said, the figure 8 in the Chen Yu clip is covering all three planes, whereas in one of your earlier posts you stated yours' is on a single plane. How can something that is less complex (one plane versus three planes) be more difficult to achieve? Can you elaborate, please?

Also, I don't think what Chen Yu is doing is easy by any standards, unless you think all he is doing is moving his waist around. There is a lot more things involved in that motion.

Easy in comparison to what I'm talking about. Keeping the pelvis on a level plane forces you to figure out how the femur and thighs are like 2 piston arms of the same engine. Chen Yu's is like each leg is a separate engine, it's a power but when you compare to the arms and shoulders where the two shoulders work in unison to create a greater power, it's the two thighs also working together. Kind of like strapping in your feet on a bicycle or buying shoes that clip onto the pedals so that you are powering on the down stroke and the up stroke.
It's finding the circle within square movements.

I started this thread because I'd found someone else who'd also posted something similar on Facebook, so it was just coincidence that the other figure 8 thread was going on.

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[D_Glenn]

In the Baguazhang that I study the animal shapes (xing) are like some lineages of Xin-Yi and some Xingyiquan where the animal Xing are like complete martial systems in their own right. They have different whole-body methods (shenti Fa) that consist of different hand, leg, stepping, waist/dantian, and chest/back methods.

The Gen Trigram Bear is also known as the Mountain (Shan) and it uses the same hip-shoulders (back)-dantian method that Chen Yu is showing.

The differences between the shenti fa is so important that it's crucial that one does or pertains to the rules of the animal they're learning.

The bear is designed for someone who is bigger, not tall, but more of an endomorph body type (or endo-meso), but an ecto or ecto-meso probably won't find much advantage in moving their body in the bear manner.

In the Bear the added movement adds power to the scapula and back which is the specialty or significance of the Bear's Shenti Fa and represents the Gen Trigram (solid line above two broken lines) also called the 'Upside down bowl' as the Bear's body method and type of power feels like trying to grab an upside down bowl with one hand and it just keeps sliding around the table.

Each animal has 8 different fighting capabilities that they employ, one of the Bear's is 'Dai' (carrying) which is grabbing onto an opponent and throwing them, but the Bear, being the Mountain, prefers to stand and throw the opponent around it's self, like the upside down bowl, and it's counter-throwing methods is to be like the bowl and not get flipped over. A different animal- the Dragon also has 'Dai' as one of it's fighting capabilities but it prefers to move around the opponent and uses it's legs (Jiao)to aid in the throws (like Shuai Jiao) and it's counter-throwing method will 'go with' (Shun) the opponent's throw to counter a counter as it doesn't care about being like an immovable mountain.

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I have trained some of the Bear Xing but I'm an Ecto so it doesn't make sense for me to focus too much time on that manner of movement, when we have different manners of moving our hips, dantian, and chest/back that is more pertinent to an ectomorph.

And most people learn at least 2 animals, the other being the Lion which is for everyone regardless of body-type, so ideally one would know 1 standard way, then retrain the body to learn the other way but then ideally have both methods of moving.

So it's not wrong or right just different, and if one was learning Phoenix then moving like the Bear is wrong, or not appropriate, rather.

[Marko]

Easy in comparison to what I'm talking about. Keeping the pelvis on a level plane forces you to figure out how the femur and thighs are like 2 piston arms of the same engine. Chen Yu's is like each leg is a separate engine, it's a power but when you compare to the arms and shoulders where the two shoulders work in unison to create a greater power, it's the two thighs also working together. Kind of like strapping in your feet on a bicycle or buying shoes that clip onto the pedals so that you are powering on the down stroke and the up stroke.
It's finding the circle within square movements.

Hmm, what then is the engine? From what I know of Chen style method, I think your depiction of Chen Yu's movement as using his legs independent of each other (if I got your meaning right) is not correct.

As for the piston and bicycle metaphors, as I understand them (though you might use them differently) still involve single plain movement. And single plain movement isn't what the legs should be doing in figure 8 movement, IMO.

[littlepanda]

It looks like you guys are describing two different movements. Is there a standard figure 8 movement?
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[D_Glenn]

Easy in comparison to what I'm talking about. Keeping the pelvis on a level plane forces you to figure out how the femur and thighs are like 2 piston arms of the same engine. Chen Yu's is like each leg is a separate engine, it's a power but when you compare to the arms and shoulders where the two shoulders work in unison to create a greater power, it's the two thighs also working together. Kind of like strapping in your feet on a bicycle or buying shoes that clip onto the pedals so that you are powering on the down stroke and the up stroke.
It's finding the circle within square movements.

Hmm, what then is the engine? From what I know of Chen style method, I think your depiction of Chen Yu's movement as using his legs independent of each other (if I got your meaning right) is not correct.

As for the piston and bicycle metaphors, as I understand them (though you might use them differently) still involve single plain movement. And single plain movement isn't what the legs should be doing in figure 8 movement, IMO.

Just two analogies, you probably shouldn't over analyze or put to much thought to them.

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[D_Glenn]

It looks like you guys are describing two different movements. Is there a standard figure 8 movement?
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Yes 2 different ways of moving. There could be a standard if everyone in the world was the same genetic build.

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[littlepanda]

Just came across an interesting clip of Li chugong. It looks like a figure 8 movement.... or something related to it. It is in chinese. I don't know what he is saying. Translation to english would be greatly appreciated

Li Chugong Practical method applications
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSHoQg2yhAY




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[littlepanda]

Interesting fact.

Humming birds can fly left, right, up, down, forward, backwards, upside down, on their side and can hover in one place. One of their secrets is a symmetrical figure of eight wing strokes.


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[charles]

Just came across an interesting clip of Li chugong. It looks like a figure 8 movement.... or something related to it.
Li Chugong Practical method applications
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSHoQg2yhAY

The Practical Method is a different animal and uses a different body mechanic. Trying to compare it to other Chen variants is largely to compare apples to oranges.

[Finny]

Hi Charles - that's a couple of times you've mentioned that

I was going to start a thread regarding the differences, but perhaps you could just outline here what you see as distinguishing the two?

Are all 'Practical Method'(s) the same? IIRC that's the Hong Junsheng line - are there differences between what say, Li Chugong does and Chen Zhonghua's Practical Method?

There seems to be less emphasis on large frame silk reeling type movement in Practical Method - is that (smaller circle/frame work) a difference between Practical Method and Chenjiagou styles?

It seems as though Hong's experience and knowledge would have been hard to diminish - yet there seems to be both a technical, but also a social gap between the two groups; is that a fair assessment?

Anyone with any knowledge of the history of Chen style - I'd love to hear more about how this gap developed.. presumably Chen Fake was doing the same thing in Beijing that he and others were doing in Chen village? Where/when did this distinction arise?

Thanks in advance!

[charles]

I was going to start a thread regarding the differences, but perhaps you could just outline here what you see as distinguishing the two?

My experience, without exception, has been that discussing with those unfamiliar with it aspects of Hong's variation of Taijiquan is fruitless. Egos, styles and politics always prevail and derail the discussion. Since the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, these days, I simply avoid public discussion of the subject.

Are all 'Practical Method'(s) the same? IIRC that's the Hong Junsheng line - are there differences between what say, Li Chugong does and Chen Zhonghua's Practical Method?

Any two students of the same teacher do it differently: each has their own "take", preferences, body type, understanding, etc. Look, for example, at the Village "Four Tigers". They had the same primary teachers, but each has made it "their own", with some significant differences between them. Similarly, there are differences between students of Hong's.

There seems to be less emphasis on large frame silk reeling type movement in Practical Method - is that (smaller circle/frame work) a difference between Practical Method and Chenjiagou styles?

No. Chenjiagou styles have large and small circles. So does Hong's style. The "circles" are done differently, though, between Chenjiagou and Hong. That is one of the starting points of divergence.

To stay on the topic of this thread, what Chen Huixian shows here is absolutely correct for Chenjiagou and is an underlying foundation for the circles done in that style: it is absolutely wrong for Hong style. The error in Hong style is called "tossing".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Njos8X-oE

These two videos, in a nutshell, get to the heart of the difference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe2Rto_zSx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmQpQUawPR8

It seems as though Hong's experience and knowledge would have been hard to diminish - yet there seems to be both a technical, but also a social gap between the two groups; is that a fair assessment?

There are lots of personalities and politics involved: it is, after all, Chinese martial arts. Many who are not directly associated with Hong's style studied with Hong, Chen Yu, for example.

Then there is Feng Zhiqiang, a distinct additional group. Lots of styles and sub-styles the result of different interpretations and implementations of the same basic principles. Yang Chenfu style is different from Yang Banhou style, but both are "Yang style".

Anyone with any knowledge of the history of Chen style - I'd love to hear more about how this gap developed.. presumably Chen Fake was doing the same thing in Beijing that he and others were doing in Chen village? Where/when did this distinction arise?

More politics, personalities and egos. And style wars.

"There are three sides to every story: one side, the other side and the truth."

My recommendation is to forget about the "sides" of the stories. Instead, seek out skills and abilities, regardless of style, sub-style, claimed lineage, etc.

[willie]

Actually, I think that they took off with the goods and that YMMA was right when they told me that the original applications were lost.
So people made up their own app's. This is a possibility.

I don't like Practical Method too much, But I have never felt it either.
This is a guy that I like and agree with.

This girl, I also like. I believe she died.

[Bao]

Yup, uterine cancer if I remember correctly. Very sad, cool girl. RIP.

[D_Glenn]

Willie, your Street Cred just died on the vine.

Anyone you think is good from this point on is suspect. Even your current teacher... maybe he's not that good after all?

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