Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Bao on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:12 am

Fubo wrote: I mean, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" didn't get it's name from beating up noobs in the street as far as I remember, it got its name from beating other "trained" martial artists at the top of their game.


No. Grand ultimate is a very bad literary translation of the tai chi symbol from the yin yang concept as interpreted by philosopher Zhouyi. Tai means "too much" or "passing beyond" Ji/Chi means most extreme or the utmost point or pole(like north pole). Together they means "passing the utmost point". It means when something becomes as much yang as it can, it turns into it's opposite and turns into yin and vice versa. Like a pendulum in motion. The name has absolutely nothing to do with anything being supreme or ultimate. Taijiquan just means "Boxing according to the principle of change between yin and yang." And nothing else.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:52 pm

Just put "reputation" instead of "name" and FuBo's post still works.

However, I wonder how much of these reputations were built on the person's ability to demonstrate an unusual skill. That was enough to impress. We all know the story of the two masters who just touched hands and worked out who was the winner.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Fubo on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:52 pm

Bao wrote:
Fubo wrote: I mean, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" didn't get it's name from beating up noobs in the street as far as I remember, it got its name from beating other "trained" martial artists at the top of their game.


No. Grand ultimate is a very bad literary translation of the tai chi symbol from the yin yang concept as interpreted by philosopher Zhouyi. Tai means "too much" or "passing beyond" Ji/Chi means most extreme or the utmost point or pole(like north pole). Together they means "passing the utmost point". It means when something becomes as much yang as it can, it turns into it's opposite and turns into yin and vice versa. Like a pendulum in motion. The name has absolutely nothing to do with anything being supreme or ultimate. Taijiquan just means "Boxing according to the principle of change between yin and yang." And nothing else.


The "name" was not the point, I suppose my text was too literal. My point was as Graham pointed it out regarding it's "reputation".
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Fubo on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:53 pm

GrahamB wrote:Just put "reputation" instead of "name" and FuBo's post still works.

However, I wonder how much of these reputations were built on the person's ability to demonstrate an unusual skill. That was enough to impress. We all know the story of the two masters who just touched hands and worked out who was the winner.


Good point regarding how these reputations were built. I suppose we'll never know for sure.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby middleway on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:04 am

Why is it that anytime someone critiques a Taiji guy doing something the typical response is "well what are the chances that they're going to be facing (my your fighter from arts that typically compete). I mean, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" didn't get it's name from beating up noobs in the street as far as I remember, it got its name from beating other "trained" martial artists at the top of their game. If you train to be able to beat other trained people, your likelihood of beating the noob of the street wil be a lot higher, but the same logic reversed does not commonly apply.


Well said. It has always surprised me that on the one hand so many people from Tai Chi will insist their art is complete with a full spectrum of capability. Then they will talk about how the ancestors had mythical levels of skill in besting every comer, from any art including the greatest wrestlers of the day. But then in the next breath, the only expectation for the art is to fight the untrained.

The fact that the only retort to your comment was to call out the inaccuracy of the translation of the name ... says volumes.

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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby cloudz on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:19 am

Fubo wrote:
cloudz wrote:
Fubo wrote:Yes, no technique will always work, there are lots of variables. That does not mean you should teach techniques that will only work against poor technique by a guy falling over... That only teaches someone how to fight the weak. The ability to change with the variables are rooted in good technique and principles.

I too have met teachers with decades of training that have no clue, it's a sickness in the Taiji world, but it's not an excuse for people showing stuff that only works on people that can't fight.


yes dude,

because the chances of those guys needing real life self defence against trained fighters using MMA and wrestling as their weapons of choice is just that high.


Why is it that anytime someone critiques a Taiji guy doing something the typical response is "well what are the chances that they're going to be facing (my your fighter from arts that typically compete). I mean, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" didn't get it's name from beating up noobs in the street as far as I remember, it got its name from beating other "trained" martial artists at the top of their game. If you train to be able to beat other trained people, your likelihood of beating the noob of the street wil be a lot higher, but the same logic reversed does not commonly apply.


Yes of course. I was making that argument years ago. However, it applies to such a low percentage of people doing any TMA let alone tai chi that the position is futile to be applied to all and sundry doing something with the name tai chi attached to it.

I also think you have picked on something and made a huge deal over it. You have made a lot of assumptions and projected your expectations, fears, desires and insecurities on all and sundry.

When you show me proof of a traditional 'old time' tai chi master teaching sprawling, you let me know. I have come across this guy before and he's a fairly decent tai chi and baji guy who has shown some good stuff.

I don't believe he doesn't know how to pull 1 leg back and or move off line etc. I'm talking the typical Chinese wrestling counter to a single leg. I don't know exactly why it's not there in that very instance.

But look I think I make my point whether you accept it or not. It's a seminar, and if you want to make this whole well worn narrative out of it you can be my guest.

My problem is that you take certain points - which I happen to agree with as well - and there is a narrative, a well known one, that comes with it.
What I am saying is that I don't buy into that narrative anymore. And I can plainly see that a number of guys on here still do.

That's ok. Good fighting is not off my agenda, I'm just sick of that narrative and it doesn't make sense to me anymore. I want to follow a new better one, and I will.

Good luck with your training.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby cloudz on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:22 am

Also expecting some random seminar attendee (aikido school) to be some bad ass wrestler is dumb.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby cloudz on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:33 am

middleway wrote:
Why is it that anytime someone critiques a Taiji guy doing something the typical response is "well what are the chances that they're going to be facing (my your fighter from arts that typically compete). I mean, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" didn't get it's name from beating up noobs in the street as far as I remember, it got its name from beating other "trained" martial artists at the top of their game. If you train to be able to beat other trained people, your likelihood of beating the noob of the street wil be a lot higher, but the same logic reversed does not commonly apply.


Well said. It has always surprised me that on the one hand so many people from Tai Chi will insist their art is complete with a full spectrum of capability. Then they will talk about how the ancestors had mythical levels of skill in besting every comer, from any art including the greatest wrestlers of the day. But then in the next breath, the only expectation for the art is to fight the untrained.

The fact that the only retort to your comment was to call out the inaccuracy of the translation of the name ... says volumes.

thanks.


Chris,

It's interesting what is getting picked on here (not Mizner). There is glaring "cut off" amongst all traditional CMA when it comes to this particular topic. The best defence you are going to see involves one leg back. Of course I think lot's of IMA and tai chi people were aware of this and could use this against single and double legs that Chinese wrestlers have - if it came to that. These are not quite the same as western leg shots at all. It's like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby middleway on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:43 am

Also expecting some random seminar attendee (aikido school) to be some bad ass wrestler is dumb.


I am not sure that is the expectation tbh.

For me the expectation is that, if the participants do not know how to do something at all, then why ask them to do it. It is not only irrelevant to the audience (who clearly don't know the fundamentals of the attacking idea) but also simply a poor choice on the part of the teacher. As you say, he probably knows a simple counter to a good shot but in this environment, the obvious thing would be to just show something else. I am sure this teachers box of knowledge extends far enough to make the content relevant to the audience.

You talk of Narrative, I am not sure what you mean there TBH. But certainly from my perspective, i think the main argument is not that all seminar attendees be bad asses or that the work be framed by competitions etc., but simply that 'relevance' should be at the forefront of the teachers mind if those seminar attendees are to get the most out of the training. Showing counters to irrelevant, poorly performed things helps who exactly in this seminar?

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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby cloudz on Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:11 am

But that's one of the things isn't it Chris. We don't know the exact context here. It was not a 5 minute seminar maybe other stuff was covered or spoken about that puts this in more perspective. Maybe someone asked him what striking he would try if his leg was caught. We all know that putting the other leg back won't work all the time, there are a lot of factors at play.

Expectations are often unrealistic for Civilian martial arts. I chose acceptance instead and put the responsibility on attendees and participants of martial arts to be ultimately responsible for their own development.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby middleway on Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:20 am

But that's one of the things isn't it Chris. We don't know the exact context here. It was not a 5 minute seminar maybe other stuff was covered or spoken about that puts this in more perspective. Maybe someone asked him what striking he would try if his leg was caught. We all know that putting the other leg back won't work all the time, there are a lot of factors at play.

Expectations are often unrealistic for Civilian martial arts. I chose acceptance instead and put the responsibility on attendees and participants of martial arts to be ultimately responsible for their own development.


Good point well made. You may well be right.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Rhen on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:14 am

What is the consensus of this Adam guy? I've seen him be really cocky on FB. I think he seriously needs a punch to the face.

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Last edited by Rhen on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Fubo on Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:11 pm

cloudz wrote:
Yes of course. I was making that argument years ago. However, it applies to such a low percentage of people doing any TMA let alone tai chi that the position is futile to be applied to all and sundry doing something with the name tai chi attached to it.

I also think you have picked on something and made a huge deal over it. You have made a lot of assumptions and projected your expectations, fears, desires and insecurities on all and sundry.

When you show me proof of a traditional 'old time' tai chi master teaching sprawling, you let me know. I have come across this guy before and he's a fairly decent tai chi and baji guy who has shown some good stuff.

I don't believe he doesn't know how to pull 1 leg back and or move off line etc. I'm talking the typical Chinese wrestling counter to a single leg. I don't know exactly why it's not there in that very instance.

But look I think I make my point whether you accept it or not. It's a seminar, and if you want to make this whole well worn narrative out of it you can be my guest.

My problem is that you take certain points - which I happen to agree with as well - and there is a narrative, a well known one, that comes with it.
What I am saying is that I don't buy into that narrative anymore. And I can plainly see that a number of guys on here still do.

That's ok. Good fighting is not off my agenda, I'm just sick of that narrative and it doesn't make sense to me anymore. I want to follow a new better one, and I will.

Good luck with your training.


Firstly, I didn't make a "huge deal about it". I made a comment, which was followed by quite a number of other comments that either misunderstood my point, or were somehow offended that the technique or teacher was being critiqued... So I responded. Well, you're making a lot of assumptions when you presume to know my expectations, fears, desires and insecurities... I made a comment about the issues with the training... That is all. I never said that this teacher was not good at Taiji etc... Speaking of "insecurities", I don't understand how some people take a critique of a specific technique out of context to mean the entire worth of the practitioner. As far as assumptions go, who said anything about sprawling? I'm not sure of the narrative you speak of, and I wasn't implying any specific narrative other than there's an issue with the training...
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Fubo on Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:19 pm

cloudz wrote:Also expecting some random seminar attendee (aikido school) to be some bad ass wrestler is dumb.


Who expected him to be a "bad ass wrestler"? More "assumptions"? I've made this point more than a few times already, but there seems to be a need for it to be repeated, so here goes. The Akidoka, or who ever Mr. single leg is, doesn't need to be an expert at applying the single leg for the teacher to demonstrate an appropriate technique. All that needs to happen is for the teacher to show him the basics of the entry, body mechanics and rhythm of the single leg so teacher can perform the defense. Anyone would need to know the basics of a technique they're planning on defending, so it's not too far fetched to expect the teacher to set it up with Mr. single leg so the seminar attendees can all benefit from an accurate demonstration of the defense.
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Re: Adam Mizner – Unthrowable w/o Rooting (Song & Ting)

Postby Fubo on Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:20 pm

middleway wrote:
Why is it that anytime someone critiques a Taiji guy doing something the typical response is "well what are the chances that they're going to be facing (my your fighter from arts that typically compete). I mean, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" didn't get it's name from beating up noobs in the street as far as I remember, it got its name from beating other "trained" martial artists at the top of their game. If you train to be able to beat other trained people, your likelihood of beating the noob of the street wil be a lot higher, but the same logic reversed does not commonly apply.


Well said. It has always surprised me that on the one hand so many people from Tai Chi will insist their art is complete with a full spectrum of capability. Then they will talk about how the ancestors had mythical levels of skill in besting every comer, from any art including the greatest wrestlers of the day. But then in the next breath, the only expectation for the art is to fight the untrained.

The fact that the only retort to your comment was to call out the inaccuracy of the translation of the name ... says volumes.

thanks.


Agreed. Thanks.
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