Iron Ring, tool for weapon training

[jaime_g]

I want to share our last experiment. It was the first time we try that, so the performance is still very poor. I hope we'll improve a bit.

https://youtu.be/asOtHPxfWjk

Iron rings are described in Nicolas Rodrigo (1731) Crisol (Crucible-melting pot) book on Destreza fencing. They are 1-2 inches wide, like curtain rings. They are used to train sticky fencing and bladework. The exercises are almost identical to single hand tui shou.

[zrm]

That was pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Bodywork]

Hi Jaime
I think the rings will actually handicap you and prevent or hamper what you need to do for stickiness.
I have all sorts of comments that would relate to blade work, single and twin stick, and empty hand work...bit I will save that for Spain.
That said, a simple question could be asked...
What makes sticky?
The question is directly addressed in the taiji classics.

[Doc Stier]

Agreed regarding the Taiji Classics.

In my training, rings of that size are used to develop precision in thrusting with a straight sword. Initially, this is done by attempting to perform parrying defensive techniques followed by a forward thrust through a stationary ring suspended from above on a string. Later, the thrusts are made towards the target ring while it is in motion laterally, and lastly while also spinning as well. Start with larger sized rings and then gradually use smaller sized rings which are only slightly larger than the width of the sword blade.

[jaime_g]

Agreed regarding the Taiji Classics.

In my training, rings of that size are used to develop precision in thrusting with a straight sword. Initially, this is done by attempting to perform parrying defensive techniques followed by a forward thrust through a stationary ring suspended from above on a string. Later, the thrusts are made towards the target ring while it is in motion laterally, and lastly while also spinning as well. Start with larger sized rings and then gradually use smaller sized rings which are only slightly larger than the width of the sword blade.

Hello

We do the same. We have also some tools and exercises to develop precision, like thrusting a book (piercing a certain number of pages), or hitting small balls. We also train lunging thrusts with the back foot trapped in a kind of clamp (to avoid lifting it). We have a bit exotic cutting targets, like lead bars, mud stacks, silk cloth, and animal carcases.

Some examples

http://i68.tinypic.com/11twi9j.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/9itf07.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2e67ck4.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/15nk66w.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/1z375e8.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/ipd0l3.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/ricawl.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/308uq8h.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/nqsbnp.jpg

[jaime_g]

Hi Jaime
I think the rings will actually handicap you and prevent or hamper what you need to do for stickiness.
I have all sorts of comments that would relate to blade work, single and twin stick, and empty hand work...bit I will save that for Spain.
That said, a simple question could be asked...
What makes sticky?
The question is directly addressed in the taiji classics.

Uhmm
I didnt think about that. I see the exercise as an easy way to teach students without them losing the bind all the time. However, makes sense that creating stickiness in the body is not the same as forcing it.

You know I will love to talk about that in Spain, my fencing library needs you

[klonk]

The drill with the ring looks like a good introductory lesson in atajo, but as others have pointed out, it is not a complete education. It teaches something about the geometry desired. What a surprise, geometry in la verdadera destreza. But, just as the drill where I have a half length waster sword and you have a full length one, which intends to teach me always to parry with the aft part of the blade, it is not a complete reflection of how things would be done in earnest.

So I think the ring drill is a good one, in the sense that it shows something useful, though not all that is useful to know. That is enough to ask of a drill.

Just my two pesetas on the matter. All I have of destreza is a bit of homebrewed reconstructed Thibault, which is not the same as learning the real thing in its country of origin.

[wayne hansen]

There ous no way the ring could hamper the ability to stick
Anyone who had real sticking ability would see this

[klonk]

There ous no way the ring could hamper the ability to stick
Anyone who had real sticking ability would see this

As a first exercise it is all right, but the opponent, let us remember, means you harm. He will screw with you if you let him. He and you have swords. He wants to kill you--safe assumption. So he will try to break the attachment, and that is where the ring exercise is incomplete reality.

One way of counteracting the opponent's tendency to break off engagement is a good swift straight thrust at his gizzard, which will make most reconsider.

[wayne hansen]

A supirior swordsman will always stick you
I was answering the assumption that it would not be good for your sticking ability
Not that it would make you invunerable

[Bodywork]

Wayne wrote: There is no way the ring could hamper the ability to stick
Anyone who had real sticking ability would see this

Presumption is an interesting weapon unto itself. Nary a thing need be added.

Anyway...
It is absolutely not needed and as others have also agreed here... any serious swordsman will break connection, stick you, re-attach, (there are many ways to do this). Trying to always stay attached can leave you reactive and being played.
That said, stickiness and winding/binding is not done the same person to person. It can be low level and can be high level. Jaime has some interesting ancient material addressing this, that echoes some koryu and Chinese teachings on the subject. All of whom differentiate between a normal way to do it and higher level way to do it. Noting that not everyone is doing the same thing to make adhesion.

On another subject
Would you tie an arm to an arm to achieve stickiness?

[kenneth fish]

My first year in High School I trained foil under Giorgio Santelli. We did something similar, but with much tighter movement to get the feel and to limit the range of movement in the engage/disengage.

[jaime_g]

My first year in High School I trained foil under Giorgio Santelli. We did something similar, but with much tighter movement to get the feel and to limit the range of movement in the engage/disengage.

That's normal. Rapier bladework cannot be as tight as foil bladework due to the size of the quillions. To disengage without crashing into the rapier quillions you need a wider movement.

[jaime_g]

. Jaime has some interesting ancient material addressing this, that echoes some koryu and Chinese teachings on the subject. All of whom differentiate between a normal way to do it and higher level way to do it. Noting that not everyone is doing the same thing to make adhesion.

Recently I have found your basic opening the body exercise as a foundational exercise in one method of spanish foil , just done in a foil stance.

[zrm]

On another subject
Would you tie an arm to an arm to achieve stickiness?

I think the point of the rings is that they can slide and are not fixed. It's not the same as simply tying two arms together. The trick is to do movement so that the ring moves in a way you want it to - it slides and doesn't get stuck, or it stays stationary when it could be sliding etc.

We use rings in solo empty hand drills to improve stickiness by balancing rings on the forearms and ensuring the rings do not slide around during arm movement. I have yet to use rings in partner drills or with swords but I assume similar concepts are at work.