Traditional vs Functional Martial Art — You Can Have Both

[marvin8]

I may not agree with everything John says. I do not believe all IMA/CMA is non-functional or impractical. I don’t believe everyone has to do hard core sparring or competition in order to learn concepts and skills to defend themselves. IMO, all martial arts (internal/external) have something to offer.

I do not believe MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial arts. IMO, MMA is still in its infancy and the skill level can improve. MMA can be a testing ground for techniques that work, but may not be the only one. New techniques may be discovered and found to be effective, in MMA.

"John Hackleman is a 44 year veteran of martial arts, a North American Champion, Pacific Heavy Weight Champion and is ranked #5 fighter in the world. He has coached some of the UFC’s most dominant fighters including Chuck Liddell, Glover Tixeira, Antonio Banuelos, Court McGee, and Tim Kennedy (to name a few)."

THE PIT Online (John Hackleman) 5 months ago
+Derukugi2 this has nothing to do with hard-core MMA, I'm simply talking about taking a practical, and functional martial art instead of a in practical, nonfunctional martial art. This has absolutely nothing to do with sport fighting at all, there are many practical martial arts where you can learn how to defend yourself, without having to do silly impractical and goofy movements that have nothing to do with defending yourself. That's all. I don't train MM a personally, and I'm 55 years old, And I train five days a week, I am very far from a couch potato, I think you are being a little too negative, And close minded, and you definitely did not hear my messages very well.

Published on Jan 14, 2014
The Pit Online Dojo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFhcwUJoF4

[Wanderingdragon]

Another guy that never learned an art, so he could use it, but he's got a hammer so its enough.

[marvin8]

Published on Jan 21, 2014
John Hackleman is an American martial artist and the head trainer at The Pit mixed martial arts gym:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5DD-PU ... tml5=False

[dspyrido]

The post says .... fake vs. real but in the video he superimposes traditional vs. modern. Then he aligns kata, animal fists and wrist locks as traditional and useless. Ergo people who do something with katas, 5 animals or wrist locks are not training hard. That's just so .... 1990s. And he said we should evolve.

Anyway - his main point is correct. If someone is doing martial arts then they need to train hard and test it. Simple but nothing profane. People knew this thousands of years ago.

Let's forget this traditional-joe-rogan-dummy-spit shit because imo mma is not new and is just a rebranding of martial concepts that have been around a long time and have just be rehashed over and over again as something new.

[middleway]

Talking specifically about the combative side to the martial arts, which is definitely only one aspect and for many not the primary one ....

But moreover I think people have a specific Idea of things when they think of 'Traditional Martial Arts'. But if it is simply age and heritage then things like Muay Thai would be considered traditional wouldn't it?

Another guy that never learned an art, so he could use it, but he's got a hammer so its enough.

Why would you need to learn an 'Art' if your goal is to be a fighter? 'Art' & Combat are not the same thing.

I do not believe all IMA/CMA is non-functional or impractical. I don’t believe everyone has to do hard core sparring or competition in order to learn concepts and skills to defend themselves. IMO, all martial arts (internal/external) have something to offer.

I think this belief is common to most people. Some of the most skilled Martial Artists i have met would be considered Traditional Martial Artists. I share this idea that arts have something to offer with one differentiation. I do not believe that ALL martial arts have something to offer. There are too many McDojos around selling snake oil and black belts to children for me to accept that.

I do not believe MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial arts.

Completely agree. In fact MMA has some serious flaws when it comes to all round combative competency. Many of which most people in that world don't like to admit, Mainly involving weapons, confined space and multiple opponents work.

With that said I haven't met many MMA guys who actually cant fight at all ... the same cannot be said for so many Tai Chi practitioners or Aikidoka etc etc that i have met, even if they claim to be combative.

Anyway - his main point is correct. If someone is doing martial arts then they need to train hard and test it. Simple but nothing profane. People knew this thousands of years ago

Agreed, However it cannot be said in honesty that the Majority of traditional arts schools have a robust testing mechanism for their technique, tactics and concepts. Some absolutely do however and it is a deep seeded part of their tradition.

The post says .... fake vs. real but in the video he superimposes traditional vs. modern. Then he aligns kata, animal fists and wrist locks as traditional and useless. Ergo people who do something with katas, 5 animals or wrist locks are not training hard.

I think there is huge merit to traditional forms, Katas etc personally. But very very rarely is it anything to do with the problem of fighting in the modern age. For instance, I was in love with Iaido and Kenjutsu for many years and there was nothing in those arts that would help me when I would work on the doors at the weekend. But that did not make them useless or worthless. It was the Art that was being practiced not the 'Martial'.

Provided we know our goals and work towards them with clarity there is never a problem, Modern vs traditional doesn't matter at all.

The problem comes when our goals are all out of whack with what we actually train and we are deluded about the effectiveness of the things we practice. Unfortunately the weight of evidence for this problem sits on the side of the Traditional arts. Hold some whacky ideas in an MMA or Muay Thai gym you will find out real fast if they are useful or not.

cheers
Chris.

[marvin8]

Anyway - his main point is correct. If someone is doing martial arts then they need to train hard and test it. Simple but nothing profane. People knew this thousands of years ago

IMO, you are misinterpreting some of what John is saying. His main point IS NOT to train hard. His main point is warning students of martial art schools that teach nonfunctional techniques. A beginning student can spend time training hard on ineffective techniques, without their knowledge. In a life and death situation, these nonfunctional techniques can put you in a coma or cost you your life. He’s pleading with schools to teach real, effective self-defense. Otherwise, call it a dance class.

Let's forget this traditional-joe-rogan-dummy-spit shit because imo mma is not new and is just a rebranding ngof martial concepts that have been around a long time and have just be rehashed over and over again as something new.

John is referencing the UFC. UFC 1 started on November 12, 1993 in Denver, Colorado. The combat sport is in it's infancy stage, relative to other combat sports and martial arts. MMA fighters' strategies and techniques are evolving.

Excerpt from http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1095406-evolution-of-the-martial-arts-how-mma-has-progressed-since-ufc-1,

“Now, fighters have their one discipline that gets them into the sport, such as taekwondo, Muay Thai, Sambo, kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, boxing, judo, wrestling, etc., but they are always adding new skills from multiple disciplines to their arsenals to complete their skill sets.

Not only does a fighter's incorporation of multiple disciplines create more than one method of neutralizing an opponent's strength, but if nothing else, the multiple styles create the unpredictability aspect that makes this sport so fun to watch, and it creates that aspect in a way that almost seems to guarantee that fans of the sport will see something that they've never seen before.

The scary thing about MMA's evolution is that what we have seen in only the past four years of the sport will one day be seen as outdated and perhaps even one-dimensional, and in the future of this sport, fighters will make common usage of moves that have yet to successfully work in today's MMA.

MMA's come a long way since the days of pure jiu-jitsu vs. pure boxing, or straight-up karate technique vs. raw wrestling ability, and as scary as it may be, it will go a long way for years to come.”

John said UFC is a testing ground for effective techniques, strategy, and what works in real self-defense situations. It’s not a street fight, but as close as you can come.

[willie]

Talking specifically about the combative side to the martial arts, which is definitely only one aspect and for many not the primary one ....

But moreover I think people have a specific Idea of things when they think of 'Traditional Martial Arts'. But if it is simply age and heritage then things like Muay Thai would be considered traditional wouldn't it?

Another guy that never learned an art, so he could use it, but he's got a hammer so its enough.

Why would you need to learn an 'Art' if your goal is to be a fighter? 'Art' & Combat are not the same thing.

I do not believe all IMA/CMA is non-functional or impractical. I don’t believe everyone has to do hard core sparring or competition in order to learn concepts and skills to defend themselves. IMO, all martial arts (internal/external) have something to offer.

I think this belief is common to most people. Some of the most skilled Martial Artists i have met would be considered Traditional Martial Artists. I share this idea that arts have something to offer with one differentiation. I do not believe that ALL martial arts have something to offer. There are too many McDojos around selling snake oil and black belts to children for me to accept that.

I do not believe MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial arts.

Completely agree. In fact MMA has some serious flaws when it comes to all round combative competency. Many of which most people in that world don't like to admit, Mainly involving weapons, confined space and multiple opponents work.

With that said I haven't met many MMA guys who actually cant fight at all ... the same cannot be said for so many Tai Chi practitioners or Aikidoka etc etc that i have met, even if they claim to be combative.

Anyway - his main point is correct. If someone is doing martial arts then they need to train hard and test it. Simple but nothing profane. People knew this thousands of years ago

Agreed, However it cannot be said in honesty that the Majority of traditional arts schools have a robust testing mechanism for their technique, tactics and concepts. Some absolutely do however and it is a deep seeded part of their tradition.

The post says .... fake vs. real but in the video he superimposes traditional vs. modern. Then he aligns kata, animal fists and wrist locks as traditional and useless. Ergo people who do something with katas, 5 animals or wrist locks are not training hard.

I think there is huge merit to traditional forms, Katas etc personally. But very very rarely is it anything to do with the problem of fighting in the modern age. For instance, I was in love with Iaido and Kenjutsu for many years and there was nothing in those arts that would help me when I would work on the doors at the weekend. But that did not make them useless or worthless. It was the Art that was being practiced not the 'Martial'.

Provided we know our goals and work towards them with clarity there is never a problem, Modern vs traditional doesn't matter at all.

The problem comes when our goals are all out of whack with what we actually train and we are deluded about the effectiveness of the things we practice. Unfortunately the weight of evidence for this problem sits on the side of the Traditional arts. Hold some whacky ideas in an MMA or Muay Thai gym you will find out real fast if they are useful or not.

cheers
Chris.

this is a good post, an honest post.
There are very few MMA guys that can not defend themselves and there are many taiji guys who can not defend themselves.
The real question is why?
in my view there are a few main reason's which I will separate for both.
1 MMA schools "WANT" you to be a great fighter, so they teach you everything.
2 MMA schools are constantly testing the skills with extreme resistance.
3 MMA techniques are not watered down, lost, or incomplete.

1 Taiji has a lot of problems in transferring the art. This might be intentionally or non-intentionally done.
2 Taiji instructors, from what I've seen usually "do not want" to give their art away to someone else.
3 A lot of the concepts, universal laws, cultivation practices being taught are incorrect, corrupted, or completely lost and non- existing in
the schools itself. in other words that little piece of paper doesn't mean that they are truly capable of transmitting the art.

closing.
it's no wonder why so many people have chosen to pursue MMA not only is it a very strong art but the people actually want to teach you
and they are competent.
I personally enjoy my taiji, wouldn't give it up for nothing, but that's just the way that I've personally seen it myself.
thanks

[C.J.W.]

Before anybody wishes to further comment on Mr. Hackleman's opinion regarding traditional arts, perhaps we should take a look at a short clip in which he demonstrates the deadly Kajukenpo hammer fist, a technique he has perfected over 44 years of diligent martial arts training:




P.S. Please keep in mind that, according to the video description, he is also a 10th degree blackbelt.

[willie]

Before anybody wishes to further comment on Mr. Hackleman's opinion regarding traditional arts, perhaps we should take a look at a short clip in which he demonstrates the deadly Kajukenpo hammer fist, a technique he has perfected over 44 years of diligent martial arts training:




P.S. Please keep in mind that, according to the video description, he is also a 10th degree blackbelt.

I like it, he looks like a good guy to train with.

[middleway]

CJW, forget the teacher ... lets look at the students.



and lets look at some of the other world class fighters who have trained at the Pit:

Chuck Liddell (UFC)
Tito Ortiz (UFC)
Jake Shields (UFC, Strikeforce)
Tim Kennedy (UFC, Strikeforce)
Glover Teixeira (UFC)

Maybe the guy knows a thing or two about fighting?

thanks

[C.J.W.]

The point I was trying to make is that someone who moves like a middle-aged purple belt at your local YMCA's Taekwondo club shouldn't be going around pretending to be some sort of grandmaster while offering their so-called "expert opinions" on traditional arts. (Whenever a self-proclaimed traditionalist starts quoting Bruce Lee, urging people to do athletic conditioning, and disparaging kata/forms as laughable and useless, a big red flag always comes up for me.)

Granted, he may be a good MMA coach and a fighter, but that's irrelevant to the fact that he lacks the skill and experience to comment on traditional martial arts.

[Bao]

'.

Provided we know our goals and work towards them with clarity there is never a problem, Modern vs traditional doesn't matter at all.

The problem comes when our goals are all out of whack with what we actually train and we are deluded about the effectiveness of the things we practice. Unfortunately the weight of evidence for this problem sits on the side of the Traditional arts. Hold some whacky ideas in an MMA or Muay Thai gym you will find out real fast if they are useful or not.
Chris.

.
1 MMA schools "WANT" you to be a great fighter, so they teach you everything.
2 MMA schools are constantly testing the skills with extreme resistance.
3 MMA techniques are not watered down, lost, or incomplete.

1 Taiji has a lot of problems in transferring the art. This might be intentionally or non-intentionally done.
2 Taiji instructors, from what I've seen usually "do not want" to give their art away to someone else.
3 A lot of the concepts, universal laws, cultivation practices being taught are incorrect, corrupted, or completely lost and non- existing in
the schools itself. in other words that little piece of paper doesn't mean that they are truly capable of transmitting the art.

Just some random thoughts and losely addressing what's in these posts...

I think we tend to forget that it's about people, not about the arts. If you have a fighter's mind set, you can learn valuable things from any arts. Though I believe that the traditional arts are in one sense, more demanding. Just practicing is not enough. You need to judge things more, search more, discover more, discard things more, keep on searching for missing pieces of the puzzle more... etc, etc. In TMCA you don't get everything served on the same plate, though it might sometimes look like you are.

[willie]

[

Just some random thoughts and losely addressing what's in these posts...

I think we tend to forget that it's about people, not about the arts. If you have a fighter's mind set, you can learn valuable things from any arts. Though I believe that the traditional arts are in one sense, more demanding. Just practicing is not enough. You need to judge things more, search more, discover more, discard things more, keep on searching for missing pieces of the puzzle more... etc, etc. In TMCA you don't get everything served on the same plate, though it might sometimes look like you are.

There is so many ways to go. billions of possible outcomes to every event, so understanding one another sometimes is through a shaded
viewing glass. which means, what we have done or seen in the past. I think you could agree? I also should have pointed out that a lot of
times it's the students fault for not training or not listening to his teacher.

[Ah Louis]

Street fight : one step above a sport fight, a cock fight, a duel with unwritten implied rules of engagement. Usually between male 20-30 years old, with the highest frequency being under 25.

Real fight for your life: not to be confused with street fight. A situation where violence of extreme prejudice is used, usually including a weapon, that is highly dangerous and unpredictable. A situation where variables and dynamic complexity play a role in survival. A situation where there is no matching up of fighters, no even playing field. Age and sex is a factor. The aggressor usually has the edge and advantage. Rape delineates such a situation.

Just keeping it all in perspective.

[RobP2]

If you never hit anyone, in training or outside of training, you will never know. If you never get hit by someone in training, or outside of training, you will never know