Traditional vs Functional Martial Art — You Can Have Both

[marvin8]

The point I was trying to make is that someone who moves like a middle-aged purple belt at your local YMCA's Taekwondo club shouldn't be going around pretending to be some sort of grandmaster while offering their so-called "expert opinions" on traditional arts. (Whenever a self-proclaimed traditionalist starts quoting Bruce Lee, urging people to do athletic conditioning, and disparaging kata/forms as laughable and useless, a big red flag always comes up for me.)

Granted, he may be a good MMA coach and a fighter, but that's irrelevant to the fact that he lacks the skill and experience to comment on traditional martial arts.

If you believe certain techniques can be harmful to someone new to learning a "martial" art, it’s your moral obligation to give your opinion, even if that person gets upset at you. It doesn’t matter whether you’re an expert. It’s their choice to take your warning or not. If this person gets knocked out in the street and their head hits the pavement, they can be seriously injured or die. They can spend the time & money learning real skills, that can be used to defend themselves.

John does not come off arrogant or disparaging of forms @ 2:37, "I did away with some of the katas and the forms that I didn’t feel were functional or practical for the street.”

A couple “nonfunctional” techniques he mentioned are:

Karate punch left in the air and your other hand chambered at your waist. I agree. This exposes you to a hook. You need to practice your punches with defense in mind, too.

“If someone tries to hit you, you grab their wrist and you throw them around like a ragdoll.” I agree. Wrist locks may work, when set-up. But, grabbing an attacker’s wrist while they are punching you is a low percentage technique. In the street, you need high percentage techniques that you can rely on.

[Ah Louis]

Traditional martial art: expressed historical methods of combat related to war or historical self defense skills in their original form implied to be relevant in principles and concepts obtain through practice. The expression includes skills at competition, observing historical culture, customs, rites, rituals and skill development for assembly of purposes such as the preservation of historic methods, appreciation, entertaining, self defense, fighting and/or business venture.


Non-traditional martial arts: cyber laser tag.


Sport martial art or non-traditional martial arts: expressed historical methods of combat related to war or historical self defense skills in their original form or other form implied to be relevant in principles and concepts obtain through practice. The expression includes skills at observing sport only, or in association with (in part or full) traditional culture, customs, rites, rituals and skill development for assembly of purposes for fight entertainment, self defense, and/or business venture.


*None of the definitions indicate quality or accuracy of anything.


Crap in, crap out: poor quality knowledge, skills, learned equates to poor skills, abilities and performance; plain dumb-ass ignorance, talking out your butt, etc. Applies to traditional martial arts, and sport martial art alike.

[Ah Louis]

Functional techniques: any move that suits the individual successfully.

Non-functional techniques: presumed archaic or untested selective historic techniques deemed without primary value to combat used or preserved by traditional marital artists and martial arts businessmen marketing a rebranded recycled product. Including techniques not used by martial art sports instructors/coaches due to the inability to modify traditional techniques to work within their sport restriction also labeled as non-functional. Finally, techniques deemed such by the poorly skilled martial artists lacking understanding and experience.


*Duplicity provides edge and merit to any technique.

[C.J.W.]

John does not come off arrogant or disparaging of forms @ 2:37, "I did away with some of the katas and the forms that I didn’t feel were functional or practical for the street.”

A couple “nonfunctional” techniques he mentioned are:

Karate punch left in the air and your other hand chambered at your waist. I agree. This exposes you to a hook. You need to practice your punches with defense in mind, too.

“If someone tries to hit you, you grab their wrist and you throw them around like a ragdoll.” I agree. Wrist locks may work, when set-up. But, grabbing an attacker’s wrist while they are punching you is a low percentage technique. In the street, you need high percentage techniques that you can rely on.

Hmm...I guess you must have overlooked the part beginning at 5:25 where he pokes fun of animal styles and say that they haven't evolved since 525 AD.

IMO, his attitude and line of reasoning towards TMAs are no different from the cliche that the vast majority of MMAists, sports fighters, and BJJ guys have been harping on and on...and ON for the past two decades.

As for the non-functional techniques he uses as examples? They only further show that his understanding of TMA still remains on a surface level, and he has never met TMAists who can really apply their arts in fighting.

P.S. Since he's also a big-time MMA coach, perhaps he should go tell Lyota Machida that Karate punches don't work well.

[marvin8]

P.S. Since he's also a big-time MMA coach, perhaps he should go tell Lyota Machida that Karate punches don't work well.

Yes, Lyoto Machida is a good example of what John means by, "You can be traditional AND functional." Machida has retrofitted his traditional techniques to function in the UFC's octagon, with some level of success.

Punches starting @ 6:55.
Published on Mar 10, 2012:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MaWKFT ... tml5=False

Traditional Shotokan reverse punch.
Uploaded on Oct 15, 2010
This video shows the important points of the reverse punch (gyakuzuki). The punch is performed on the spot and also moving forwards. Hip movement, in particular, is emphasized:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czCGwYU ... tml5=False

[Overlord]

My question is that if he believe that certain moves are more effective with knife, which is critical in real life, why did he abandon them? That is contradictory ~

[RobP2]

To me saying a technique doesn't work is a bit like saying a screwdriver doens't work. If your using it to hammer in a nail, then no it doesn't.

Then again if your training is based around rote technique then you may have a hard time making anything work. A gun is only as accurate as the person who pulls the trigger

[marvin8]

To me saying a technique doesn't work is a bit like saying a screwdriver doens't work. If your using it to hammer in a nail, then no it doesn't.

John's idea is there are some good tools. However, you should know the safety rules &/or modify them to make them safe, in the street. Otherwise, the tools can become very dangerous (e.g., throwing a punch without leaving the other hand up to defend, chambering punches at the waist, etc.). Then, there are some tools that just don't work (e.g., grabbing a wrist as attacker is punching you, etc.) and can be outright dangerous. John warns not to buy (fall for) those tools.

John believes the UFC is the highest testing ground in the world to test your tools (strategies, concepts, techniques, whatever works, etc.). You can find out what tools work and what tools fail. New and better tools may come out, you just have to watch as the UFC evolves. (Personally, I am not a huge fan of MMA at the moment, as, IMO, the skill level is still in it's infancy.)

Bringing his idea further, if you think MMA is low level, the UFC is a place that is
open to all martial arts (internal or external). You are welcome to bring your tools to the octagon and display what works. You can gain the respect of others and highlight (as Lyoto Machida did) your style and/or concepts (e.g, internal, etc.), if that is your goal. IMO, it's not about style. Fighting is fighting.

Then again if your training is based around rote technique then you may have a hard time making anything work. A gun is only as accurate as the person who pulls the trigger

I agree. When analyzing a fighter that is good at using a certain tool (technique) successfully, many times you discover that fighter is doing other things good (e.g., setup, strategies, controlling distance, timing, angles, position, rhythm, pace, etc.) IMO, it's not so much the technique itself, as it is controlling those other factors surrounding the technique.

[dspyrido]

John is referencing the UFC. UFC 1 started on November 12, 1993 in Denver, Colorado. The combat sport is in it's infancy stage, relative to other combat sports and martial arts. MMA fighters' strategies and techniques are evolving.

...

MMA's come a long way since the days of pure jiu-jitsu vs. pure boxing, or straight-up karate technique vs. raw wrestling ability, and as scary as it may be, it will go a long way for years to come.”

John said UFC is a testing ground for effective techniques, strategy, and what works in real self-defense situations. It’s not a street fight, but as close as you can come.

UFC is a company & brand. Many of the affiliated posts around ufc are designed to produce a view that it is unique, evolutionary and new. Many of the posters know the importance of towing the message - you want global appeal then you market to ufc. Go against it and you get cut off.

But mma is evolving and new? Bullshit. Look at the history of nhb, challenge matches in the west, lei tai, vale tudo, combat sambo, bareknuckle fights, pankration and many many other versions that where even tougher than the rules found in ufc. Nothing is evolving except for the gloves, the drugs, the materials in the cage, broadcasting and youtube.

But Johns view on bad technique ... by definition it is bad technique and should be dropped or more importantly understood how it is properly applied. Every technique has a method. It can be applied badly or well. But lets consider wrist locks. No I wont walk up and grab a punch in midair and wrist lock the fist. But I will control the entry, grab the arms and if exposed utilise a wrist destruction or wrist lock if presented. They work and are border illegal in mma but need to be learnt in context. John is making a valid point but in essence it is still just - train hard (practise) and test. This poo pooing of traditional vs modern is just irrelevant.

Perhaps the title should be absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own...

[wayne hansen]

https://www.facebook.com/wudangptcc/pos ... 1487620015

[marvin8]

The post says .... fake vs. real but in the video he superimposes traditional vs. modern.

John is making a valid point but in essence it is still just - train hard (practise) and test. This poo pooing of traditional vs modern is just irrelevant.

Correction: John used the term Traditional vs Functional . . . You Can Have Both, NOT traditional vs modern. These are opposite subjects. Traditional vs Functional . . . You Can Have Both, supports traditional martial arts.

John said his school is traditional, practical and functional. On his youtube channel, John has videos of him demonstrating traditional techniques, which he believes are functional and practical.

He is NOT “poo pooing” traditional martial arts. That would be like “poo pooing on himself.” In fact, John said the opposite, “Be traditional, but be real.” John warned students of martial art schools that teach, in his opinion, outdated, non-functional techniques, that can give them a false sense of security. (As stated in my OP, I don't agree with everything John says. I believe, there are practical techniques in 5 animals. However, John has his own opinion on which techniques he believes are functional.)

In the video, he supports traditional martial arts several times:

@ :37, Traditional vs Functional . . . You Can Have Both
@ :59, “I’m very traditional, when it comes to my martial arts.”
@ 3:25, “Our overall training program, that’s what it consists of. It’s very traditional. So, I consider The Pit a very traditional gym.
@ 3:43, “My gym is very traditional, but it’s very functional and very practical.”
@ 4:34, “So, we are very traditional, but we’re also practical.”
@ 4:43, “You can be traditional and practical and functional. You don’t have to be traditional and not practical.
@ 9:37, Be traditional, but be real.

UFC is a company & brand. Many of the affiliated posts around ufc are designed to produce a view that it is unique, evolutionary and new. Many of the posters know the importance of towing the message - you want global appeal then you market to ufc. Go against it and you get cut off.

But mma is evolving and new? Bullshit. . . .

Lyoto Machida is a long time practitioner of Shotokan karate. The videos I posted showed his modification or evolving of the style vs the traditional Shotokan technique. (I understand your viewpoint. It depends on the meaning of "MMA," etc.)

There are several articles on UFC’s relatively, young history and the evolution of MMA. History is inherently factual. Here’s one of them:

https://www.facebook.com/wudangptcc/posts/1190791487620015

Sorry, I got mixed up with wayne's video. However, here is another article on the young history and the evolution of MMA:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Wonderboy-and-the-evolution-of-MMA-456131

[yeniseri]

Absolutely! The modern era somehow separates the two between gymnastic excellence, functional/utility and artistic performance so we end up with a hodge podege of mutually exclusive propaganda that
tends to degrade the art and makes it a pajama gymnastic event lacking martial utilitarian value. It is just differnt and unique and you get paying spectators that at least allows for a place in the martial spotlight. I may not like it but it is good in the long run. It is positive regarding revenue generation and that is the goal.

The goodfellows who do the martial stuff are few and far between as they are a tiny minority! It's all good.

[marvin8]

It is just differnt and unique and you get paying spectators that at least allows for a place in the martial spotlight. I may not like it but it is good in the long run. It is positive regarding revenue generation and that is the goal.

The goodfellows who do the martial stuff are few and far between as they are a tiny minority! It's all good.

IMO, whether you like it or not, more money in combat sports allow combat players to devote more time to the martial arts, like in the “old days” in China. More money allows fighters to hire, who they believe are, the best trainers in the world, with the most skills and experience in fighting. Money allows fighters to hire the best sparring partners in the world, as well.

The more viewers, the more commercial sponsors, the more money for everyone. In UFC, it all depends on your fighting ability, the best fighter fighting the best fighters, as opposed to boxing where it’s all about the benjamins.

[dspyrido]

John said his school is traditional, practical and functional.[/b] On his youtube channel, John has videos of him demonstrating traditional techniques, which he believes are functional and practical.

Actually on second watch it's clearer. My (john's) gym the pit is traditional. But our school is functional as well etc. etc. So it's just blatant self promotion. But then...

@5.26 if you're teaching them about a crane ... or animal system ... (yadda yadda) they need to evolve

So it's ok for him to be traditional. But anyone else who has traditions he does not like (or even understand) then they should evolve. Does he wear a gi? Is he japanese? No so how stupid is that? How about coloured belts? Perhaps the wai kru is stupid? Why call techniques by japanese names? No he does not pick on these because he trains them yet feels comfortable to make fun of animal systems or wrist locks...

Lyoto Machida is a long time practitioner of Shotokan karate. The videos I posted showed his modification or evolving of the style vs the traditional Shotokan technique. (I understand your viewpoint. It depends on the meaning of "MMA," etc.)

I think waynes video does an excellent job of explaining this.

Sorry, I got mixed up with wayne's video. However, here is another article on the young history and the evolution of MMA:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Wonderboy-and-the-evolution-of-MMA-456131

Another example of either the ignorance of the mma writers or they are just towing the ufc line & paid to obscure the truth so that mma wannabes will all think ufc & mma are the evolving modern platform.

The truth...

Not one mention of vale tudo...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

How about how these guys preceeded ufc1...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooto

Or how the gracies where even inspired by platform fighting derived from this when forming ufc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_tai

And these guys obviously did not get mma

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

Not one of these systems is even midly referenced in your article & I have barely scratched the surface of the many mma formats that were pre-"mma". Hell if the modern olympics where not so scared of a little violence (ok a liitle more than a little) then mma would have been reintroduced in 1896.

[marvin8]

Lyoto Machida is a long time practitioner of Shotokan karate. The videos I posted showed his modification or evolving of the style vs the traditional Shotokan technique. (I understand your viewpoint. It depends on the meaning of "MMA," etc.)

I think waynes video does an excellent job of explaining this.

Another UFC fighter is Georges St-Pierre with a Kyokushin karate background. Georges evolved his fighting style further, by training boxing with Freddie Roach.

Another example of either the ignorance of the mma writers or they are just towing the ufc line & paid to obscure the truth so that mma wannabes will all think ufc & mma are the evolving modern platform.

The truth...

Not one mention of vale tudo...

It’s neither ignorance nor propaganda for the UFC. All professional writers get paid, that does not mean they "obscure the truth."

Writers focus on the UFC because IT IS considered THE “evolving modern platform” for MMA. The UFC is the most successful, well-known MMA league in the world. With pay-per-view revenue & major TV deals in multiple countries, the UFC has the highest salaries, which tends to attract the best, most skilled fighters from a wide variety of styles. One former UFC fighter is Cristiano Marcello who went from Vale Tudo to PRIDE to UFC.

There is a real history with fighters and their styles that can be traced back, starting from UFC-1. The UFC has evolved from the dominance of Royce Gracie with his single style of BJJ to more well-rounded fighters, in the present. In today’s UFC in order to survive, both stand up and ground work knowledge is important. The fighters’ skill level will continue to evolve, as the UFC is still in its infancy.