tai chi physics

[emptycloud]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTrXxyboUzc


Rich

[Ah Louis]

It's physics not magic. It just takes practice. The basics of this skill are relatively easily learned. What's really hard is to be able to do this with less and less compliant attackers who don't signal their attacks and don't firm their structures as much. -Gene Burnett


I hate this guy...he ruined all the magique of martial arts! All kidding aside, this was a great video and I am really glad emptycloud posted it. It is good to see someone else who understands and sees the same things. Exposing the tricks being employed in standard master demonstrations is definitely where the real skill is lays. Knowledge of postural structures, and associated, is clearly vital and not out of reach of anyone, and not exclusive. I agree with Burnett, it is a matter of practice. I will reiterate, practice is key i.e. timing to these type of demonstrations, it's the secret. You can teach concepts, but what you can't teach is someone what can be learned through practice; no skill comes instantly. Great video.

[Ian]

OH GOOD, PUSHING.

[windwalker]

It's physics not magic. It just takes practice. The basics of this skill are relatively easily learned. What's really hard is to be able to do this with less and less compliant attackers who don't signal their attacks and don't firm their structures as much. -Gene Burnett


I hate this guy...he ruined all the magique of martial arts! All kidding aside, this was a great video and I am really glad emptycloud posted it. It is good to see someone else who understands and sees the same things. Exposing the tricks being employed in standard master demonstrations is definitely where the real skill is lays. Knowledge of postural structures, and associated, is clearly vital and not out of reach of anyone, and not exclusive. I agree with Burnett, it is a matter of practice. I will reiterate, practice is key, it's the secret. You can teach concepts, but what you can't teach is someone what can be learned through practice; no skill comes instantly. Great video.

To me it seems confused.
He talks about physics but really does not talk about the physics of what is shown.
He seems to focus on cues and "tricks" as he calls them, instead of "intent", timing and positioning.
In watching it it seems like his focus is not clear more so if he is supposed to be talking about the "physics"
whats happening.

[Dmitri]

Those punches he does at 2:52 and 2:58 have some serious "mechanical" errors. Wonder if he tried them on a heavy-enough bag.

But seems like a nice guy, and passionate about the art he does.

[Ah Louis]

One more thing to add to what I said. We are all human. We all obey and under the same laws of physics. And we all work the same, with the same kinesiology and anatomy. The knowledge, no matter what style is practiced, the elements are the same. One is knowing when the opponent is vulnerable and susceptible to and thus capitalizing on it. The more refined a person in achieving the goals, however demonstrated or executed is really the apex of skill.

The greatest effect and testimonials comes from the unlettered or novice. Those having difficulty in recognizing and identifying the mechanics of high level refined movement as skills being outside of their knowledge and understanding search for an explanation. More often than not that explanation is to pull from the supernatural self etc. as they never seen a human do such an impossible feat. There are others, who don't seek a supernatural explanation. They are merely over-helming impressed with the demonstrated skill, (not knowing the mechanics, i.e. trick) they gush instant credibility and superiority on the demonstrator. Never realizing they too have the same abilities, not seeing what differentiates them is not knowing the trick and the practice of it.

Sure this is a joy kill for some. I am not speaking to destroy anyone's believe in anyone or thing. Simply, it is a matter of like minds, skill, and knowledge that I appreciated this video. I understand why the value of allowing people to think it is magic important, it piques interest, it provides a mystic, it impresses all of which attracts students and credibility. Demonstrations letting the cat out of the bag, revealing the stage magic trick, popping some people's bubble does have an adverse effect on marketing and student enrollment. But, someone who is really teaching people avoids deceiving them like a stage magician. They will teach you how it works, giving you the needed explanation for the skills and authority to learn and succeed.

The video wants people to learn and it is free. And with most things, what make martial arts techniques work isn't something complex, it is something simple well done through practice.

[Ah Louis]

Joseph Campbell’s monomyth model plays an essential, powerful and integral role in the demonstrations of masters as mentioned in the topic video.

Campbell wrote, "[Hero’s journey/hero's myth] has always been the prime function of mythology and rite to supply the symbols that carry the human spirit forward, in counteraction to those that tend to tie it back...the hero or heroine, that is to say, someone who has found or achieved or done something beyond the normal range of achievement and experience."

It is the hero's myth we supply to our teachers or those who do things we can't explain. Yet, we deem those who uncover the mystery of misunderstood skills as villains. For example, in the world of stage magic, a magician who does a tell all book on stage magic, is vilified and condemned by his fellow professionals. This too happens in martial arts.

In this video, it shows how a person's level of skill isn't always what they want you to believe it is. People do create illusions of various types to persuade others of their skill, and it is good to be able to see right threw such people. No one likes to be defrauded. The video provides a tool to look at and evaluate demonstrations, a tool that can be critiqued. It is everyone's choice to conclude the validity of the illusion or if it isn't an illusion by what ever tools and methods they choose, The decision they shouldn't be chastised for the personal decisions they make.

I see the video being for those who are preferring to examine the demonstration from an approach related to the exploitation of results being presented as more than being simple mechanics. An approach that doesn't enjoy much common popularity.

[Ah Louis]

It's physics not magic. It just takes practice. The basics of this skill are relatively easily learned. What's really hard is to be able to do this with less and less compliant attackers who don't signal their attacks and don't firm their structures as much. -Gene Burnett


I hate this guy...he ruined all the magique of martial arts! All kidding aside, this was a great video and I am really glad emptycloud posted it. It is good to see someone else who understands and sees the same things. Exposing the tricks being employed in standard master demonstrations is definitely where the real skill is lays. Knowledge of postural structures, and associated, is clearly vital and not out of reach of anyone, and not exclusive. I agree with Burnett, it is a matter of practice. I will reiterate, practice is key, it's the secret. You can teach concepts, but what you can't teach is someone what can be learned through practice; no skill comes instantly. Great video.

To me it seems confused.
He talks about physics but really does not talk about the physics of what is shown.
He seems to focus on cues and "tricks" as he calls them, instead of "intent", timing and positioning.
In watching it it seems like his focus is not clear more so if he is supposed to be talking about the "physics"
whats happening.

windwalker that is a good argument. I see where you are building that argument. I am not able at this time to prove or disprove your argument. I do think your points are valid. I agree, he does say physics, but doesn't explain it in enough terms of physics. I would say he touches on physics in his explanation. In my mind this video talks to approaches of skills, and how people can be fooled. Maybe I didn't make it so clear. I am not so concerned about if he is arguing the existence of qi as a martial arts power per se. What I see is the usefulness in how people can fake skills, like framing qi in a supernatural way and yet in reality it is simply the skill of timing. If we take that down to another level to people who frame themselves in a hero myth promoting what they do as some kind of special unique skill finally revealed to the world, is nothing more than a simple skill. One that requires a little knowledge, skilled timing, and practice that can be pulled off. Like a stage magician, they don't want their tricks revealed. I see the video as informing people, educating people, giving the better tools to evaluate demonstrations and make their own judgements then what is only given by the presenter.

[windwalker]

Maybe I didn't make it so clear. I am not so concerned about if he is arguing the existence of qi as a martial arts power per se. What I see is the usefulness in how people can fake skills, like framing qi in a supernatural way and yet in reality it is simply the skill of timing.

Disagree, I'm not concerned about how such skills can be faked. With out being able to do them I dont see how one would know nor why would it matter what others do in their practices. I am only concerned about my own practice and of those I interact with in finding the truth in what we do....allowing them to develop their own truth based on experience. Whether its useful or not is up to them.

If we take that down to another level to people who frame themselves in a hero myth promoting what they do as some kind of special unique skill finally revealed to the world, is nothing more than a simple skill. One that requires a little knowledge, skilled timing, and practice that can be pulled off.

Like a stage magician, they don't want their tricks revealed. I see the video as informing people, educating people, giving the better tools to evaluate demonstrations and make their own judgments then what is only given by the presenter.

I see little value in pointing out others faults, nor am i here to save others from themselves, what one seeks one often finds.

Many Chinese masters are using physics to explain what they do tied into traditional thought concerning qi.
For example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o

Li He-Sheng, Yang Style TaiJiQuan, Old Six Sets, Triangular Force

2:23
This teacher talks about and demonstrates what he calls triangle power.
He directly shows the physics, and talks about the mind body interaction, and how its used.
He mentions that one part of the triangle is made by using the mind..
This to me is explaining the theory of taiji using physics.

All very straightforward, with some training anyone should be able to do it.

6:05

He talks about the contact points and empty part of triangle.

11:30
talks of the small triangle in the palm formed by using the mind, and then demos
the effect of using this....

Very different then the OPs clip.....

[Ah Louis]

Maybe I didn't make it so clear. I am not so concerned about if he is arguing the existence of qi as a martial arts power per se. What I see is the usefulness in how people can fake skills, like framing qi in a supernatural way and yet in reality it is simply the skill of timing.

Disagree, I'm not concerned about how such skills can be faked. With out being able to do them I dont see how one would know nor why would it matter what others do in their practices. I am only concerned about my own practice and of those I interact with in finding the truth in what we do....allowing them to develop their own truth based on experience. Whether its useful or not is up to them.

If we take that down to another level to people who frame themselves in a hero myth promoting what they do as some kind of special unique skill finally revealed to the world, is nothing more than a simple skill. One that requires a little knowledge, skilled timing, and practice that can be pulled off.

Like a stage magician, they don't want their tricks revealed. I see the video as informing people, educating people, giving the better tools to evaluate demonstrations and make their own judgments then what is only given by the presenter.

I see little value in pointing out others faults, I'm not here to save them from themselves, what one seeks one often finds.

Many Chinese masters are using physics to explain what they do tied into traditional thought concerning qi.
For example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o

Li He-Sheng, Yang Style TaiJiQuan, Old Six Sets, Triangular Force

2:23
This teacher talks about and demonstrates what he calls triangle power.
He directly shows the physics, and talks about the mind body interaction, and how its used.
He mentions that one part of the triangle is made by using the mind..
This to me is explaining the theory of taiji using physics.

All very straightforward, with some training anyone should be able to do it.

11:30
talks of the small triangle in the palm formed by using the mind, and then demos
the effect of using this....

Very different then the OPs clip.....

Agreed, and the video you posted has a great approach. If I could understand what he was saying, I am sure it is more of an in-depth tutorial then the OV. When I speak of people or master's in my comments, I am referring who are pretentious; misleading people with language and trickery to sound better then their actual ability.

I think both videos have value because of their approach is the same, no pretentiousness, no selling of their knowledge. They are discussion mechanics (different of course) that really work.

My Chinese Taiji master was very practical in his explanation, giving the nuts and bolts, and laying out the mechanics as plain as day as well. He would use the term Fajin, noting it as a Chinese terms and explain the mechanics and the physical laws associated, i.e in laymen's terms. I don't think you have to have a Ph.D in physics to explain how things work. If you did, only physics would understand it. The point is you are explaining it in terms of mechanics, function and movement so it is understood by everyone and not esoterically.


Good post, I enjoyed the conversation.

[windwalker]

If I could understand what he was saying

My point would be that with out understanding if one tried to copy it
they should be able to work it out.

when I was in China, my Chinese language skills where really very poor.
It forced me to watch and really see and feel, try and copy what was done, when they asked if something was understood
there was no talking about it, one was expected to be able to show it, not talk about it.

The teacher could only provide what
Peter Ralston calls an "authentic experience" like a zen koan, it was up to oneself to work it out.

In another thread people talk of " mirror neurons" something that might help to explain how people can learn things with out directly
being told whats going on.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24807&start=15&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=mirror

[Ah Louis]

If I could understand what he was saying

My point would be that with out understanding if one tried to copy it
they would be able to work it out.

when I was in China, my Chinese language skills where really very poor.
It forced me to watch, and copy what was done, when they asked if something was understood
there was no talking about it, one had to be able to do it....The teacher could only provide what
Peter Ralston calls an "authentic experience" like a zen koan, it was up to oneself to work it out.

I understand. That is how my JMA training went, no verbal explanation. A technique was shown once, then you had to remember it and figure it out. You would be admonished forcefully and loudly, "you are doing it wrong," if you where doing it wrong. Those corrections came at precise planned moments. In that case you need to note it, and make corrections. Also, if something was said outside of class to correct your technique, it was a Japanese metaphor translated in broken English. You have to unlock the meaning of the metaphor and apply it. That was the real Japanese old school approach to teaching I was told by so many Japanese. Well, 90%. If it was 100% the admonishments would have been followed by a strike from a bamboo kendo mock sword...very painful. Or in my instructor's case, by some means of torture under his sensei. Training through experience (trial and error) and not words. My JMA doesn't train people that way anymore, 90% of the old school way. He uses other methods and approaches to teaching by "authentic experience."

Understanding what your seeing, and mechanically explained helps some people determine the actual skill of the presenter.

[Bao]

OH GOOD, PUSHING.

Don't understand the objection. The clip is not about pushing, but about handling incoming force that don't change, similar like handling a dead object falling on you. If an attacker over commit and is not able to change due to the momentum, you will work with a similar situation regardless if he tries for a shoot, a kick or punch.

when I was in China, my Chinese language skills where really very poor.
It forced me to watch and really see and feel, try and copy what was done, when they asked if something was understood
there was no talking about it, one was expected to be able to show it, not talk about it.

The teacher could only provide what
Peter Ralston calls an "authentic experience" like a zen koan, it was up to oneself to work it out.

Authentic experience... Good expression. Being there, feeling it first hand. Yeah, that's the most important. Skill translates from touch to touch.

...Maybe the gap between experience and spoken words is all too great to bridge?

OH GOOD, PUSHING.

Don't understand the objection. The clip is not about pushing, but about handling incoming force that don't change, similar like handling a dead object falling on you. If an attacker over commit and is not able to change due to the momentum, you will work with a similar situation regardless if he tries for a shoot, a kick or punch.

[Ian]

OH GOOD, PUSHING.

Don't understand the objection. The clip is not about pushing...

The guy says 'push' about ten times in the first three minutes.

...but about handling incoming force that don't change...

I don't assume I'm training to fight vegetables.

But if you think 'dealing with a single, one-direction force' is worthwhile, that's your right. I just don't think it's a good use of anyone's time.

[Bao]

But if you think 'dealing with a single, one-direction force' is worthwhile, that's your right. I just don't think it's a good use of anyone's time.

Any tool to understand how to deal with incoming force is ok with me. Just basic practice like practicing scales on the piano. That phase is important for anyone learning to play the piano. A lot of TCMA practice have the same function.