balancing yin & yang

[Finny]

You insist they are showing 'the same processes at work'. Maybe, maybe not. I made the clear distinction between the 'no touch' stuff Ueshiba does... which you DON'T see in the other clip. They are NOT the same, yet you insist they are.

If you could do any of what was shown you wouldn't be asking the questions nor making the assertions that your trying to make now.
whats your point,,,

If I posted a clip of me doing 'no touch' stuff, would that make me more or less credible? Cos I guarantee, I could produce a comparable video.

but I'm still at a loss to understand why anyone would want to play that game of (self)delusion.

who is deluded, the ones who cant do it, trying to prove it cant be done, or the ones who can or have felt it not needing to.

carry on,,,

mmm.. amazingly those who can, have NEVER, ever, not ONCE, shown that they 'can' do 'it' to anyone who is not their student.. wonder why...

[Finny]

If Ueshiba and Mr Goldberg appeared in front of you and categorically stated that they were NOT doing the same thing, would you argue?

and if they said yes would you argue? do you claim to "know" and speak on their behalf?

No - you did. YOU said they 'show the same processes'... my question was a veiled way of asking you.. what makes YOU claim to 'know'?

Nice attempt at flipping it back on me though

[emptycloud]

in contrast to no touch

for me Bruno's finishes are a bit rough, but I like his fighting spirit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCmIgNFiHgw

Rich

[chenyaolong]

same thing?

[Bodywork]

Finney
Your take on the work, and windwalkers meandering positions, is spot on and makes perfect sense.
Of course the videos are not the same thing!
Just so you don't think you've gone mad!
Dan

[windwalker]

Finney
Your take on the work, and windwalkers meandering positions, is spot on and makes perfect sense.
Of course the videos are not the same thing!
Just so you don't think you've gone mad!
Dan

The two clips are the same, the same processes at work.

is what I wrote.

but ok, they'er not the same.

whats not the same?
whats different between using just the tip of a finger to no touch?

We have 3 levels of contact that we work with/on..skin, hair and air.
These are dived into 3 levels of interaction

body, qi and spirit

each level is very distinct, each builds on the other
Each an extension of the other at a higher level of skill.

When used, all are combined when used.

Because of the skill, the what, how and why
is very different as would be expected if indeed its a true skill.

If one agrees the same processes are being used, the only real difference is the medium by which
they work through.

the student seems like he is in a lot of pain,,,from just being touched by the teachers finger why is that?



People I know can do similar things, to including no-touch which is just
an extension of what is shown different level...The process by which both work
IME are the same....

its been said that one is faked...there are other clips of Ueshiba, showing some of
the same things. Are all such clips now to be thought of as not real or faked?

[Ian]

^ Well please show me an example - ANY example - of someone doing that when the opponent is trying to do this:

[windwalker]

^ Well please show me an example - ANY example - of someone doing that when the opponent is trying to do this:

The problem is that any example provided would be questioned just as those that are demos or practices are now questioned.
What would be different?

If one can not understand an example that is supposed to be more clear by nature, what would showing it in use that may not be so clear show,
what would be your or anyone's expectation?

The better question is why do people many of which have practiced for a long time, come and stay with those who have such skill sets?
What is that they found or now understand?

really I dont care,,As I mentioned I've only tried to provide a fist hand accounting of things I've seen and work with.
I really didnt want to discuss much about the teachers in question.

Only to mention that if one accepts one demo, then it would seem that one would have to accept the other
which to me show the same process at work.

Bodywork, has said they'er not the same.

True they are not.
I never said they where.

[Ian]

^ Well please show me an example - ANY example - of someone doing that when the opponent is trying to do this:

The problem is that any example provided would be questioned just as those that are demos or practices are now questioned.
What would be different?

If you showed this material working in a competition or a real fight - NOT a student-master demo filmed in front of a crowd - why would anyone be incredulous?

[windwalker]

^ Well please show me an example - ANY example - of someone doing that when the opponent is trying to do this:

The problem is that any example provided would be questioned just as those that are demos or practices are now questioned.
What would be different?

If you showed this material working in a competition or a real fight - NOT a student-master demo filmed in front of a crowd - why would anyone be incredulous?

haha, your kidding right?

to date there are no clips of any CMA clearly being used in what you've mentioned and yet many here say they practice
the same arts that have yet to be shown to work by your standards.

Of the clips that get questioned, In many cases the now students, have had extensive practices in other styles and stay after meeting those
with whom such things are questioned that once filmed always illicit the same responses here

the funny and odd thing for those whos practices are not filmed, and will not show any clips
but have interacted with those that post here are not questioned. Wonders of wonders its not real, until it is...as long as its not filmed

sounds like you need to go to a seminar...maybe you can find your answers there.

[Ian]

to date there are no clips of any CMA clearly being used in what you've mentioned

Ok, so no video evidence of this stuff being used in competitions or real fights.

Yet, countless demo videos.

And allegedly, numerous competitors who seek out the masters... who shall remain nameless... and who inexplicably aren't filmed when they compete.

[willie]

there is a video somewhere, which I can not find right now, where the headmasters at wudang " who do have an incredible amount of qi"
say, when questioned about non-touch stopping an attacker, "this is not possible". and those guys are into all kinds of stuff.

[windwalker]

there is a video somewhere, which I can not find right now, where the headmasters at wudang " who do have an incredible amount of qi"
say, when questioned about non-touch stopping an attacker, "this is not possible". and those guys are into all kinds of stuff.

and the song remains the same


It's not about what anyone says or shows. It is about ones own training and experiences.
If for some its not real, then no amount of talking or clips will make it so, nor should it.

If for others it is, they know. no need to say much...they can talk and understand whats being shown or talked about.
the questions and answers are very different.

What some seem to be trying to do is to try to invalidate
practices or experiences which they have not had...
which to me makes no sense....

what would the "headmasters at wudang " say about the clip of the teacher just using his finger?
I wonder if he could do what was shown.

carry on,,,

[middleway]

to date there are no clips of any CMA clearly being used in what you've mentioned and yet many here say they practice
the same arts that have yet to be shown to work by your standards.

Nonsense.

Shuai Jiao is a CMA and there are plenty of examples of its use in competition.

There are also many clips of CMAists either free fighting, sparring or competing in San Da or San Shou.

Further there is plenty of video of CMAists competing in non co-operative grappling formats like fixed and moving step push hands.

I say nothing on the quality of some of those clips but they exist and show what they show.


WW, If some one came to you and said 'I can turn into a werewolf.' Would you believe them simply because there is numerous footage from movies of people turning into werewolves? I would hope you would use some realistic objective measures to assess the plausibility of the claim.

If so, then why may i ask are you surprised that people question something, so other worldly, as making people hop about like bunnies with zero physical contact? Surely skepticism and objective reasoning should be praised!

The only way to change someones opinion who approaches subjects honestly (critically but with an open mind) is to present evidence that will convince them. But in every demonstration with a master of this stuff, without exception and including the videos you have shared with me, the methods betray themselves as fake or 'programmed' into the adoring student (of which you are one). They are full of points where the work fails the master, mainly when the student didnt get the message that he was to jump about.

It is about ones own training and experiences.

Why do you trust your own experience? especially knowing that people like Derren brown could truely make you believe something that was not real.

Essentially you are saying, all of these masters showing no touch work ON VIDEO should be accepted on face value, but to expect them to show it even on a moderately resisting partner is not realistic.

The question obviously becomes ... why show it in the first place? The bigger question is, why even train it?!

thanks.

[willie]

I would agree with middleway, why train it? if your training it to try and sense the attack before it arrives, cool. but don't get lost along the way.
I also feel that the road to this kind of thing is a dangerous one to pursue. stick to health or martial.