Huge Roundhouse Kick

[cloudz]

IMO, the goals of the internal and external fighters are similar: yield, gain advantageous position, control, borrow force, cause the opponent to double weight, stiffen, or tense up, etc., then finish.

You say that like every fighter has the same style, strategy, tactics.. .
Do you think John Wang is a good example of your theory?

edit.

I don't actually agree with delineating or describing fighters or people that way.
You may as well replace your description of them with the word "all".

All fighters are not the same and some are not even similar.

Where Ali and Foreman similar in style. No.

Internal and external are best understood by you as training modality and maybe even paradigm.

[cloudz]

that's a pretty sick weapon.
the answer is wrestling, obviously.
or equally high quality kick catching/ takedowns.

[Strange]

Hey strange... you a vewy vewy funny fewah.

Now as for intention .... on the big if chance we do meet I'd be happy to show you what intention really means.

Now kindly go fuck yourself.

See like my smiley to?

hey mang, it was the kind of reply i was expecting and more

i ain't going anywhere soon, see the matter o fact is i came here first.

there'se really some strange talk going on here lately.
so i'ma just curious to understand.
pray tell:
how a person is able to piss and diss his own heart and mind, and his teachers, and his seniors, and his fellow students
who held his hands, corrected his stance, shared kindly advice for 10 years in a ima public forum?

was it the spandex, bro? (it is correct i call you bro, LHBF is a form of XinYi)

it is great you think of showing me your intention! Fantastic! Hoo-rah!
just dun come in your spandex; if you show me your centre piece
i lose automatically; cos everyone know asians have small dicks

i am deeply shocked and sadden for you teacher.

now you tell me who is fucking himselves?

[dspyrido]

hey mang, it was the kind of reply i was expecting and more

i ain't going anywhere soon, see the matter o fact is i came here first.

there'se really some strange talk going on here lately.
so i'ma just curious to understand.
pray tell:
how a person is able to piss and diss his own heart and mind, and his teachers, and his seniors, and his fellow students
who held his hands, corrected his stance, shared kindly advice for 10 years in a ima public forum?

was it the spandex, bro? (it is correct i call you bro, LHBF is a form of XinYi)

it is great you think of showing me your intention! Fantastic! Hoo-rah!
just dun come in your spandex; if you show me your centre piece
i lose automatically; cos everyone know asians have small dicks

i am deeply shocked and sadden for you teacher.

now you tell me who is fucking himselves?

You're a pretty incoherent whiny fella aren't you? Here have another smiley for the stupid part of your post.

But since intention has come up I will tell you what my sifu told me. Intention is all about what you want to apply in training so that it comes out in a fight.

In a fight if someone spits in your face and you want to calmly walk away then you calmly walk away. But if you choose to fight and want to be "vicious" then your intention is categorically 110% "vicious".

But to explain it with an example. As another xinyi sifu had told me when he was confronted by someone ... he simply picked them up by the armpits, pinned them to the wall and said "If you want to keep going then I will cut you like a chicken". His intent was 110% very clear and focused & the other guy got the message.

Now being able to have this control over this mindset and apply it into training to be calm when wanted yet go beyond the normal human capability when needed is all about "intention". The guy in the op has some phenomenal intention. No spongey push hands that lack real intent (vs. good push hands that also have good intent). No bullshit statements around fighting at the "intention level". Just great focused training.

You can choose to be offended by this or understand it but deep down I know my post will be wasted. So have another smiley.

[marvin8]

Err no

Care to elaborate? What do you agree or disagree with my statements? I welcome any other viewpoints. That is why I join discussion forums to discuss, exchange, learn, and read other viewpoints. My current viewpoint is flexible. I’m a student of fighting; willing to learn, change, discard, add, and improve.

use feints, traps, setups, deception, angles, pivots, strategies (attack high/low, linear/circle attacks, inside/outside guard attacks, pressure/release pressure, chaining attacks, etc.) footwork, etc., to disguise their own intention and control their opponent's intention (even with no touch)

this is not really the point.
What do you train (IMA) and how long have you trained it ?

My point is elite external fighters also use intention to some degree. My experience includes IMA, CMA, JMA, & WMA, grappling and standup. I am not an elite fighter, yet. However, what I do or know doesn’t change the basic, fundamental, similar goals and strategies of elite fighters (external or internal).

IMO, the goals of the internal and external fighters are similar: yield, gain advantageous position, control, borrow force, cause the opponent to double weight, stiffen, or tense up, etc., then finish.

You say that like every fighter has the same style, strategy, tactics.. .
Do you think John Wang is a good example of your theory?

I would not say same “style.” There are fundamental fighting principles, strategies, and tactics that work regardless of styles or venue (e.g., fighting, sport competitions, or self-defense). IMO, it is less about any style or technique and more about using fundamental strategies in fighting.

I assume johnwang is a good fighter. However, I don't have enough information to make a fair judgment. I do not know his fight record,who he has fought, or his opponent's fight records (e.g., wins, losses, opponents, KOs, ages, weight, sizes, etc.).

When speaking of elite fighters in general, I was thinking in terms of the top combat sport fighters (boxing, MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, kickboxing, judo, wrestling, sambo, etc.), who may have had hundreds of fights. You can watch videos of their fights and look up their fight records on the interwebz (e,g, http://boxrec.com/).

I don't actually agree with delineating or describing fighters or people that way.
You may as well replace your description of them with the word "all".

All fighters are not the same and some are not even similar.

Where Ali and Foreman similar in style. No.

Internal and external are best understood by you as training modality and maybe even paradigm.

IMO, elite fighters share similar strategies, regardless of style. Internal and external training, techniques and body method may be different. However IMO, they share similar strategies and goals, when it comes to actual fighting.

Here are a few articles on fighting strategies:

Tim Cartmell, "TAIJI QUAN COMBAT:" http://www.shenwu.com/taichi.htm
Zhang Yun, "Similarities and Differences in Neijia Fighting:" http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_XY_BG/arti_TBX.htm
Greg Jackson, "Game Theory:" http://thesurge.com/stories/meet-the-mma-trainer-who-uses-data-analysis-and-game-theory-to-coach-his-fighters-to-victory
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_XY_BG/arti_TBX.htm
SweetScientist, "Boxing Strategy: Art of Deception:" http://www.sugarboxing.com/boxing-strategy-art-of-deception-part-i/
Jimmy Pedro, "Judo Strategy:"https://budofinder.com/2016/01/14/judo-strategy-with-the-olympic-judo-coach-jimmy-pedro/

[cloudz]

You know it all already, obviously.

Internal training has nada at all to do with strategies and tactics or even techniques directly. You can talk about "intention" like that, but you can't even begin at the beginning with what it is and what it means for your own internal training. Training "you" first and developing "you" first in a specific way. You think it's about what now? Just listen to yourself.

That's why I question if you even do any, let alone appreciate it for what it is.

Strategies and goals for a fight - yea ALL fighters can share and pick and choose. So why even begin to make it about internal/ external. Because you don't have a fucking clue yourself and you read a lot of other peoples opinions and narratives and just don't know what to believe.

Soft skills are all over the place and they are just "kung fu", they may well more valued by certain people and there may be a reason and or correlation behind that, But again soft skills do not equal internal training. You don't know that, because you don't appreciate it for what it is. Most of what is written about is symptomatic not the thing itself. The thing itself is too obvious sitting there under your nose, because you know the popular narratives, you have tried it out, you have seen it and smelled it like a dog checking out that shiny bone you fancy so much.

[cloudz]

hey mang, it was the kind of reply i was expecting and more

i ain't going anywhere soon, see the matter o fact is i came here first.

there'se really some strange talk going on here lately.
so i'ma just curious to understand.
pray tell:
how a person is able to piss and diss his own heart and mind, and his teachers, and his seniors, and his fellow students
who held his hands, corrected his stance, shared kindly advice for 10 years in a ima public forum?

was it the spandex, bro? (it is correct i call you bro, LHBF is a form of XinYi)

it is great you think of showing me your intention! Fantastic! Hoo-rah!
just dun come in your spandex; if you show me your centre piece
i lose automatically; cos everyone know asians have small dicks

i am deeply shocked and sadden for you teacher.

now you tell me who is fucking himselves?

You're a pretty incoherent whiny fella aren't you? Here have another smiley for the stupid part of your post.

But since intention has come up I will tell you what my sifu told me. Intention is all about what you want to apply in training so that it comes out in a fight.

In a fight if someone spits in your face and you want to calmly walk away then you calmly walk away. But if you choose to fight and want to be "vicious" then your intention is categorically 110% "vicious".

But to explain it with an example. As another xinyi sifu had told me when he was confronted by someone ... he simply picked them up by the armpits, pinned them to the wall and said "If you want to keep going then I will cut you like a chicken". His intent was 110% very clear and focused & the other guy got the message.

Now being able to have this control over this mindset and apply it into training to be calm when wanted yet go beyond the normal human capability when needed is all about "intention". The guy in the op has some phenomenal intention. No spongey push hands that lack real intent (vs. good push hands that also have good intent). No bullshit statements around fighting at the "intention level". Just great focused training.

You can choose to be offended by this or understand it but deep down I know my post will be wasted. So have another smiley.

Your language might be confusing

if you do internal training and your first understanding is using it to build your body, you wouldn't so easily confuse that with what you are discussing. Your use is very English language; that meaning, that definition. In IMA's it is discussed and used differently - especially at what should be the first stage. First you develop it and use it in various ways on yourself.

Having certain demeanours or expressing some sort of outer intention for any given task is for everyone. That's why people get frustrated round here sometimes, i think..

[willie]

You know it all already, obviously.

Internal training has nada at all to do with strategies and tactics or even techniques directly.

this is wrong.
1 The body is integrated by the forms.
2 Push hands is a training exorcise that helps people toward a martial goal. foundation work.
3 Techniques from the forms are introduced for fighting.
4 The techniques change in size to fit the actual circumstance. Example, Big circles, medium circles, small circles. These are moves from the forms.
Some with great expanding motion. some with very fast smaller motions.

[cloudz]

no, you're getting something wrong here willy. all due respect, hear me out.

It what's in you and therefore what you put inside them and what, if anything, your internal training can bring to them. If you train these things bringing your internal training into them, then that's something else.

BUT, these guys are not acknowledging that fist, basic, most important stage.

It just is not worth MY time to discuss beyond that with guys that have no appreciation for training with the tools of the mind, breath and sensation - using them diligently on themselves to mould, refine and rework their 'block'..

The real discussion and insight is rarely if ever forthcoming from some folks and the focus largely elsewhere. We can all easily draw our own conclusions based on our own experiences.

[willie]

no, you're getting something wrong here willy. all due respect, hear me out.

It what's in you and therefore what you put inside them and what, if anything, your internal training can bring to them. If you train these things bringing your internal training into them, then that's something else.

BUT, these guys are not acknowledging that fist, basic, most important stage.

It just is not worth MY time to discuss beyond that with guys that have no appreciation for training with the tools of the mind, breath and sensation - using them diligently on themselves to mould, refine and rework their 'block'..

The real discussion and insight is rarely if ever forthcoming from some folks and the focus largely elsewhere. We can all easily draw our own conclusions based on our own experiences.

I agree.
remember what I wrote.

[cloudz]

and remember what I wrote; "directly".

your list is what I would term: "indirectly". Taking it on and forward into those things is no easy task as neither is developing some internal strength and body skill.

And as I re-iterated, it's pointless to talk about, everyone can do those things marvin listed and bandy the terms relating to soft skills or whatever. Plenty mechanicals and sensitivity can be done in any arts for the obvious things people always like to bang on about. But thinking "it's all the same" can be quite to most erroneous.

It's all missing the point and lacks a fundamental appreciation for (martial) internal work/ nei gung which is the (martial) foundation and without it all other (martial)discussion in relation to it is fruitless bullshit here (with some people).

[marvin8]

You know it all already, obviously.

Internal training has nada at all to do with strategies and tactics or even techniques directly. You can talk about "intention" like that, but you can't even begin at the beginning with what it is and what it means for your own internal training. Training "you" first and developing "you" first in a specific way. You think it's about what now? Just listen to yourself.

No, I don’t know it all. It's my opinion on a discussion forum, which I said is flexible and I'm here to learn. I said, "To my understanding . . . I realize IMA may use intention at a higher level." This is from my post:

To my understanding, "intention" is not exclusive to IMA. Not that anyone in particular is saying that. I realize IMA may use intention at a higher level, which I would be interested in hearing the difference in details.

It’s windwalker’s fault. (I may have misunderstood windwalker, but appreciate the posts.) By memory, I was thinking of these posts here. From viewtopic.php?f=3&p=345882:

still around, just have come to realize unless one is close to or working with the same ideas, it makes any example shown irrelevant, the example itself starts to be called into question rather then what it shows.


he talks of deciding to sit, but actually it would be better to say intention to sit.
awareness based arts are based on this. at that moment that one has decided to act, for most they'er locked into an action that they cannot change, its based on an expected outcome, the body is on autopilot until the action is completed. if one can sense the intent, or works from this perspective it will tend to answer many questions about what one sees happening and why it happens. if one can sense intent then it should stand to reason that one could also project intent

its a little different then what you posted, I like peter's stuff and also a lot of the systema, clips I've seen (please dont tell them that)
from my POV they most reflect what I have come to know and practice as taiji in a way that might be more understandable then some of the chinese masters demos.
in the clip shown they can not do or control the other with out:

attaching
joining
following
releasing

And as I re-iterated, it's pointless to talk about, everyone can do those things marvin listed and bandy the terms relating to soft skills or whatever. Plenty mechanicals and sensitivity can be done in any arts for the obvious things people always like to bang on about. But thinking "it's all the same" can be quite to most erroneous.

It's all missing the point and lacks a fundamental appreciation for (martial) internal work/ nei gung which is the (martial) foundation and without it all other (martial)discussion in relation to it is fruitless bullshit here (with some people).

My intent (pun intended) was not to "bandy the terms." After reading more, I understand what you mean about intent coming from internally. My subsequent post was answering your questions. I did not know what direction you were coming from because of your one-liner response. No. I do appreciate "internal work," that's why I am here on this website.

IMO, when it comes to defending yourself on the street, it comes down to the same goal, to survive. Whether you call it internal or external, I think Samkor's high pressure experience in the ring would help his intent to survive:

Ha! Those are low level, external roundhouse kicks. Imagine what would happen if Samkor learned how to throw internal roundhouse kicks. Also, that is in a ring. The streetz is a whole different mentality. Samkor would panic and not be able to handle himself in a real fight.

[willie]

[quote="cloudz"]and remember what I wrote; "directly".

your list is what I would term: "indirectly". Taking it on and forward into those things is no easy task as neither is developing some internal strength and body skill.

quote]

the hard part is to try to figure out what internal means for each and every individual in a way that does not insult someone else's understanding.

no one agrees on what internal is, they are all experiencing re-wiring going on inside, they feel as if no one understands them, so it's just not worth arguing about.
external people may look at someone doing a form, it means very little to them, they see only 2 percent because they can not see what is going on inside.
thank you for your patience.

[cloudz]

I dont have much of that virtue. But I thank you too.

[Strange]

desperado,
my problem is not coherence, but too much of it.

if my posts serve to make you recollect what your teacher/shifu has said
it has served its purpose.

You are mistaken to say that i might be offended.
i am only offended when you talk spandex.
the Ten Animals have enough content for you to study a lifetime
not necessary for other funny frankenstein stuff.

Your understanding of intention is only at the beginning, rough stage
perhaps the energies produced by some other unorthodox training regime has caused a skew

know that it is through intention that ones form and energies are cultivated.
your post about working on the intention level, seems to suggest that it is some superfluous matter.
where in fact, it is by one's xinyi that all possibilities (in the martial context) spring from.