Satria Fighting Arts

[wayne hansen]

It shoul be noted here that he is not only hitting pads
He is using boxing type strikes
So rather than just hitting the pads in a Silat manner he is using the Shen fa of western boxing
I find nothing wrong with that
I would be happy as a young person if he was my teacher because I like what he does and how he does it

[chimerical tortoise]

No I haven't but I am reliably informed he is absolutely of the elite level and hits lightening fast and with huge force when he wants.

All the warning signs of somebody that knows their stuff!

I was very impressed by some of his older videos, and really liked the vibe from his more recent interviews with Alex Kozma - he seems like a very positive person (which I have found more and more important in MA as time goes by). Would love to meet him and learn if I ever get the chance!

[Tiga Pukul]

Yeah I think it is great when traditional arts are not afraid to learn from modern combat training. We did loads of focus/thai pad drills when I was training hsing-i. Properly used it's a superb and highly flexible training tool.

just wondering what you feel they would learn considering.

Sparring[edit]
Silat.jpg
Sparring in silat may be done according to official competitive rules with protective gear, or traditionally with no protection at all. In either case, attacks to vital areas are prohibited. Sparring, as with silat training in general, was often done in varying conditions to prepare the fighter for combat in any situation.

The most common of these was training in dim light, sparring against several opponents, fighting unarmed against a weaponed opponent, and fighting in darkness or blindfolded. Others include fighting in a tight space (common in Bajau styles), on a slippery surface (as in Minang styles), or from a seated position (a fundamental of Sunda styles).

Experienced practitioners may fight against up to eight opponents, a practiced known as kerojok in Javanese. The defender is attacked by both armed and unarmed opponents. Weapons can be interchanged between the attackers, while the defender is allowed to steal and use the weapons against them. These matches were traditionally full-contact and highly dangerous, but are generally kept light-contact today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silat

Other then fighting in a ring with a rule set it would seem that they did or do have a way of proofing their art.

Sadly this Wikipedia explanation is definitely not the general rule in Silat nowadays. As what happened in China with developing the modernized Wushu, the Indonesian government also strived for unity in the indonesian martial arts. Actually before the 1950's it was not even called 'pencak silat'. That is a relative new name for it. And with it also came a competition format of silat which i really do not like:



The rules in the above format are too prohibitive so that you can see that the stance they use is one you definitely don't want to use in a real fight..

This is a more recent attempt at modernizing the silat format. Sadly to me it doesn't look like silat at all, but more bad mma. Ah well, at least they are trying..

[Tiga Pukul]

It shoul be noted here that he is not only hitting pads
He is using boxing type strikes
So rather than just hitting the pads in a Silat manner he is using the Shen fa of western boxing
I find nothing wrong with that
I would be happy as a young person if he was my teacher because I like what he does and how he does it

To me, quite honestly it also points out to a lack in knowledge in the specific silat, when you use the shen fa of western boxing. I'm not saying that boxing is bad, on the contrary, it's an awesome art. However there still is knowledge about the specific silat way of hitting in some of the older styles. Perhaps i'm too critical but like some of the members here i prefer more an approach where you value the specific 'shenfa' of a style more than mixing it up, because there is a lot of thinking put behind it.

[wayne hansen]

I agree to some degree
I just think when you mix different arts with other Shen fa it becomes something new
The yoga his whife has developed is interesting but no longer hatha yoga
This does not take away from its value

[marvin8]

To me, quite honestly it also points out to a lack in knowledge in the specific silat, when you use the shen fa of western boxing. I'm not saying that boxing is bad, on the contrary, it's an awesome art. However there still is knowledge about the specific silat way of hitting in some of the older styles. Perhaps i'm too critical but like some of the members here i prefer more an approach where you value the specific 'shenfa' of a style more than mixing it up, because there is a lot of thinking put behind it.

This is the same as in CIMA. The players are able to show their shenfa in forms. However IME, the shenfa disappears or is not any more effective, in sparring or competition against a non-compliant opponent. Being able to perform shenfa in a form, does not necessarily mean a player can use it in a fight.

IMO, including the drills in the OP video and the boxing mitts article help develop important fighting skills (reflexes, simultaneous offensive and defensive skills, rhythm, timing, accuracy, etc.), regardless of style. That does not mean to do boxing or discard any training methods, techniques or skills (e.g., body method, punches, strategies, etc.) of your own martial art.

Sadly to me it doesn't look like silat at all, but more bad mma. Ah well, at least they are trying..

I agree. At least, they are trying. Maybe if they include, adapt and improve the drills in the OP video, they will eventually be able to use higher level, Silat skills in competition. As IME, most elite fighters devote a large amount of time in similar type of partner and pad drills.

If you are unable to practice your unique martial art’s skills in these type of drills with a moving trainer/partner, IMO the chances of using them in a competition or fight are less. As the boxing mitts article author stated, these type of drills are the "most realistic fight training simulation next to sparring."

[Tiga Pukul]

This is the same as in CIMA. The players are able to show their shenfa in forms. However IME, the shenfa disappears or is not any more effective, in sparring or competition against a non-compliant opponent. Being able to perform shenfa in a form, does not necessarily mean a player can use it in a fight.

True, that's why you need to perform (like you said) your specific shenfa also in pad-drills, controlled sparring, semi-free sparring and free sparring. If i learn to keep my heel on the ground of the back foot and there is a good explanation for that, and i practice with pads and immediately the rear heel comes up 'because that's how you hit harder against pads'; if i start dancing away like a boxer when using the pads, i totally neglect the reasons for not doing that in a traditional art you practice, than you didn't understand the shenfa of your own system. At least, in my opinion.
A system is a system for a reason, with a specific way of hitting. standing, holding your hands, position of the feet etc. Unless what you train is not a system, but just a remaining empty shell or part of once whole system.

[cloudz]

I guess it comes down to different factors and how you see your system, or perhaps your place in any art or system. How you see yourself.. What you can mix, what you can separate.. It can get complex. More work for the wicked eh.

[marvin8]

ONE Championship, f.k.a. ONE FC, based in Singapore is Asia's Largest MMA Organization. ONE Championship’s youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/OneFCMMA/videos.

There are Indonesian fighter’s competing, currently. However, I don’t know their martial art backgrounds. I don’t think any fighter will survive in ONE Championship, specializing in Silat alone.

Here’s an older fight . . .

A.J. is head coach at http://borneotribalmma.weebly.com/aj-pyro-lias-mansor.html,

AJ ‘Pyro’ Lias Mansor is a passionate athlete. A former Malaysian National Rugby player & National Silat Champion, he has become the first East Malaysian One FC MMA fighter and 1st Malayisan National OneFC Featherweight Champion.

AJ founded and is the Head Coach for the Borneo Tribal Squad in Kota Kinabalu, Sabah, which is a team of young, developing fighters with a diverse background in Muay Thai, Silat, BJJ, Wrestling & Boxing.

AJ, currently a Tune Talk Ambassador, proudly represents his nation and is always striving to be a better athlete, fighter and coach. He is always training, learning and competing to stay on top of his game and to be a stronger fighter.

Published on Feb 1, 2013
AJ " Pyro" Mansor is the first Silat fighter to compete in the Mixed Martial Arts event at the One FC Championship: Return of Warriors this Saturday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8RPz0Ff0xg

On Feb 2, 2013, A.J. lost his fight against Jian Kai Chee, by unanimous decision.

On Nov 15, 2013, A.J. defeated Melvin Yeoh by unanimous decision to become the inaugural Malaysian National Featherweight Champion.

Published on Nov 18, 2013:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzPbI6zjQ4k

[Tiga Pukul]

To be honest, I don't hold silat championships in too high regard, mainly because the rules of modern day silat is way to restricting. So I don't doubt for one second that if you want to compete in MMA championships, you have to crosstrain at fighting MMA style.Does that say something about the combat effectiveness of silat, I don't think so, well perhaps partly. If you want to fight competition you train for that style of fighting. if you want to train to end the fight quickly in a street environment, i think you can also train differently. But that's an old discussion.

[marvin8]

I was wondering what you meant by:

Nice video again of Steven Benitez and his new protege. Again it's not my cup of tea, but as
mentioned yes....you can see some good level changes there.
Because they practice fast drills you can see their flowing way of moving.

IMO, the OP video was fast, flowing, but more technique oriented.

The following Silat video, that I like more, shows baiting to create openings (luring), techniques based on reactions of the opponent (chaining), control opponent (head, limb, etc.), control space (range), angles, positioning, off balancing, strategies and finish (throws, locks, strikes, etc.).

Published on Oct 1, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGyVQYVtqbk

In demonstrations, it’s justifiably common for the opponent to freeze his attack, as the demonstrator does multiple moves. However, I am left with wondering which moves might work against a non-compliant opponent. That's why I looked for a "high level" Silat player (AJ " Pyro" Mansor) to see which Silat moves he might use in a non-compliant fight.

One viewpoint on martial art demonstrations (that I do not agree with 100%):

Published on Oct 30, 2015
We go over the reasons why many martial art systems today use demonstrations and how they have watered down martial arts to non-effective but flashy looking stunts to make people believe the martial art is effective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_OXg8Eafmk

[Tiga Pukul]

I was wondering what you meant by:

Nice video again of Steven Benitez and his new protege. Again it's not my cup of tea, but as
mentioned yes....you can see some good level changes there.
Because they practice fast drills you can see their flowing way of moving.

...........
IMO, the OP video was fast, flowing, but more technique oriented.

The following Silat video, that I like more, shows baiting to create openings (luring), techniques based on reactions of the opponent (chaining), control opponent (head, limb, etc.), control space (range), angles, positioning, off balancing, strategies and finish (throws, locks, strikes, etc.).


In demonstrations, it’s justifiably common for the opponent to freeze his attack, as the demonstrator does multiple moves. However, I am left with wondering which moves might work against a non-compliant opponent. That's why I looked for a "high level" Silat player (AJ " Pyro" Mansor) to see which Silat moves he might use in a non-compliant fight.

One viewpoint on martial art demonstrations (that I do not agree with 100%):

Published on Oct 30, 2015
We go over the reasons why many martial art systems today use demonstrations and how they have watered down martial arts to non-effective but flashy looking stunts to make people believe the martial art is effective:

With 'Not my cup of tea' i mean, that it's too flashy, too much focussed on low ground work and too athletic which looks more suitable for lightweight guys. But that's my taste.

The second video by Maul Mornie has indeed some smart stuff in it. I never was too convinced about his mentioned background in silat and kuntao, but apart from that the guy has got talent (As does Steven Benitez by the way). What i'm not too fond of is Maul Mornies knife work which to me looks unrealisatic. Too much passing from outside to inside and outside to inside again, against a knife attack. Looks really dangerous to me.

A high level silat player to me is a guy who can perform, like you mentioned 'techniques based on reactions of the opponent (chaining), control opponent (head, limb, etc.), control space (range), angles, positioning, off balancing, strategies and finish (throws, locks, strikes, etc.)' on a random attack or random series of attacks with aggressive intent. Which is indeed a super hard thing to do.

To me 'AJ Mansor' is not known as a high level silat player, a decent MMA practitioner yes.
For me those 2 are distinctly different things, i know a lot of people don't agree, but that's ok.

The goal with traditional silat, is like traditional kungfu, to finish the fight quickly in a smart tactical way. Proper timing is one of the most important things, and yes you can see that with some very good competition guys like the Connor McGregor fight vs Jose Aldo and the recent fight with Cyborg Santos who got his forehead smashed in with a knee. Both done with proper timing. This type of timing you can also train in a different format is my opinion.

[wayne hansen]

I agree with all you say tiga

[marvin8]

To be honest, I don't hold silat championships in too high regard, mainly because the rules of modern day silat is way to restricting. So I don't doubt for one second that if you want to compete in MMA championships, you have to crosstrain at fighting MMA style.Does that say something about the combat effectiveness of silat, I don't think so, well perhaps partly. If you want to fight competition you train for that style of fighting. if you want to train to end the fight quickly in a street environment, i think you can also train differently. But that's an old discussion.

Steven Benetiz includes MMA style training in order to help his students build fighting (self-defense) skills and apply the art of Silat. That does not mean he feels Silat is ineffective nor requires competing in MMA. AJ Mansor also respects Silat, as he trained it. However, AJ prefers the MMA style training, over the traditional Silat training. In MMA, AJ is free to choose whichever technique(s) (e.g., Silat, Muay Thai, boxing, etc.) he feels is the most effective in a fight.

The goal with traditional silat, is like traditional kungfu, to finish the fight quickly in a smart tactical way. Proper timing is one of the most important things, and yes you can see that with some very good competition guys like the Connor McGregor fight vs Jose Aldo and the recent fight with Cyborg Santos who got his forehead smashed in with a knee. Both done with proper timing. This type of timing you can also train in a different format is my opinion.

The goals are similar in that, the MMA fighter likes to finish the fight as quickly as possible, while being defensively responsible. As mentioned, the McGregor vs Aldo fight lasted 13 seconds, with a KO of Aldo.

Both Steven Benetiz and AJ Mansor believe MMA training (e.g., drills, pads, sparring, etc.) is an effective way to train for fighting, while respecting other styles and opponents. MMA style training does not limit one from using their own unique martial art. The skills developed in MMA training have already been mentioned. It's a question of if one feels these fighting skills are important and can be transferred to the street for self-defense. IMO, yes. Including MMA style training can be effective in training for self-defense.

Ann Osman is a student of AJ Mansor.

Published on Mar 27, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xtSOpsbX0M

[Tiga Pukul]

So... what are you saying? that we should all mix up with MMA when we want to make the style effective for fighting? Is it the same idea you have about CIMA? I wonder why you come to this forum then? To 'save some lost souls'? To have people switch over to MMA? I wonder, how old are you?

Plenty of the stuff on MMA is nothing new. Plenty of the MMA speciffic training is not unique to it. In the style we train we use 'functional training' drills, which to the untrained eyes would look exactly like BJJ warmup drills. Did we take it from BJJ or MMA? Hell no, we want to stick to the principles of the style. But yes we could use a stopwatch and make 'tabatha' like drills of it. Same with padwork, or Bags to kick on. You can drill your techniques on it which are specific to the silat. Is it MMA training? Don't think so, just because we use boxing bags or focus mitts. Using that material is fine.

But....i do resist against training kickboxing or mma type drills using their type of power-generation or use boxing type stance. Then you start messing up your own system (mixing it up). Why would i do all the trouble to create a certain shenfa to throw it away by 'copying kickboxing movements', changing my stances, covering up my face in a boxing stance. That would mean i would make a bad copy of an otherwise good style: MMA or Kickboxing. Worse, it would mean i have no faith in my own silat system.

A good system is not just Shenfa (i hope i correctly understand the meaning of this word), it should be a system, which means: Specific warmup drills to your system, specific type of hitting/kicking, specific tactics and movement patterns, specific ways of dealing with various attacks. tactics that transfer from standing up to sitting or on the ground, unarmed or armed. A system is not a loose collection of drills or shenfa exercices, it should be a Whole.

I don't care what a pesilat like Steven Benitez or AJ Mansor do or mix to make their art work, if it works for them, more power to them. But in our style we don't do it like that, and yes our main teacher can make it work against a resisting opponents with competition skill in MMA or Thaiboxing, and he closes them down instantly. Usually their response is total surprise, and then they can decide what to do, continue competing in MMA/Thaiboxing or switch to Silat or go over to third option, trying to mix their stuff with some knowledge of ours, usually they fail in that because the solutions are often opposite or very different, so your mind gets confused.

Do we need to mix with MMA to make our art more fighting effective? Hell no, we trust the system. Is it perfect? Perhaps, but people aren't so we work within our limitations.

I'm sure there are more styles like we have, also in Chinese Internal Martial Arts, the challenge is just to train it in an effective way which is 'for fighting' and not mix it up, i don't believe in that. Sure, i did the whole JKD thought for a while as well but in the end, it didn't work for me. Train just one thing, and train it good. And I know 'i'm swimming against the current with that'