soft Roy

[willie]

It looks to me like he is overextending into his opponent. I can see his heel pop up a couple of times.

That's just very small stuff.
These are the big guys remember?

[Interloper]

He actually does seem to lose his vertical axis/line a couple of times. Not "small stuff" if working with an uke who has some internal structure, as uke would be able to pull or push nage off-center. But this is a demo of aiki-no-jutsu on a student without internal structure who cannot receive, ground out and return force, and there is no waza/technique or martial application involved.

[willie]

He actually does seem to lose his vertical axis/line a couple of times. Not "small stuff" if working with an uke who has some internal structure, as uke would be able to pull or push nage off-center. But this is a demo of aiki-no-jutsu on a student without internal structure who cannot receive, ground out and return force, and there is no waza/technique or martial application involved.

Ah, But that issue is the waza / martial application for that moment.
Yes there was a moment when an internal guy could have just grounded out and reversed the whole situation.

There are much bigger errors in this video. These errors are so predominant in internal arts that it
is actually why the forms don't work. Erase these errors and it's a whole different animal.
Now were talking He Jinbao power...and I havn't even met the guy yet.
I'm assuming that he is as good as D_Glen says.

[Interloper]

He actually does seem to lose his vertical axis/line a couple of times. Not "small stuff" if working with an uke who has some internal structure, as uke would be able to pull or push nage off-center. But this is a demo of aiki-no-jutsu on a student without internal structure who cannot receive, ground out and return force, and there is no waza/technique or martial application involved.

Ah, But that issue is the waza / martial application for that moment.
Yes there was a moment when an internal guy could have just grounded out and reversed the whole situation.

It should not be just at the application for "that moment"... the conditions for creating internal strength and aiki should be present at all times, and should be the way we carry ourselves before we even make contact. IMO, one of the greatest weaknesses of the internal arts (besides being incomplete in many schools and even systems) is that the mindset is such that the conditions of internal structure and potential to use it should be "turned off and on" at the moment of application of waza. But you should already "be there" before your opponent has even acted upon his intention to attack.

[choldstare]

Maybe the demonstration is trying to show an exercise or practicing of a technique but the dudes reaction is what keeps me away from aikido circles.

[GrahamB]

But that in no way detracts from the validity of what is being shown in the video. It is a real cause-and-effect. People just have to realize that it has nothing to do with combat or martial application; rather, the body method used to create the effect can be applied to combat/martial situations with the proper training and working it under duress.

I think I like your attitude. You really know what your talking about.
This is just a basic tai chi opening move.

There is a big difference between good and real good.
Can you point out to me what is wrong with the structure?
And not just that, But what is wrong with the entire scenario?

Or How about Charles, Graham, Bao, or anyone else. feel free...jump right in.

Time to earn the paycheck.

Willie,

Seems to me people with moderator status here get overly sensitive when I make comments on anything connected to Mr Harden, so after getting an official warning over the mildest of comments I made once, I'm not going to step in on this thread. I got burned once for touching the stove, I'm not going to touch it again. Shame, but that's the way it is!

Cheers,
G

[Bao]

There is a big difference between good and real good.
Can you point out to me what is wrong with the structure?
And not just that, But what is wrong with the entire scenario?

Or How about Charles, Graham, Bao, or anyone else. feel free...jump right in.

The problem, how I see it, is that both outsiders and practitioners (incl. teachers) from various styles, have a hard time to separate practicing principle in an isolated manner from real life application.

This problem might look different for different styles, but in fact, this is just as much an EMA problem as a problem in IMA. You need a very good teacher with a good sense of reality and experience of real life combat experience. But how many are those teachers? Hard to find.

Practicing this way is fine for me. But you also need practice with resisting opponents, free sparring etc. It's easy to call something BS without exactly knowing where in a system an exercise have it's place and what else kind of practice the system has.

[willie]

Willie,

Seems to me people with moderator status here get overly sensitive when I make comments on anything connected to Mr Harden, so after getting an official warning over the mildest of comments I made once, I'm not going to step in on this thread. I got burned once for touching the stove, I'm not going to touch it again. Shame, but that's the way it is!

Cheers,
G

O.K. First off, I met Dan years ago, He is a very good martial artist. I don't know him that well, but I would feel safe to say that he is quite capable.
From what I gather, Only from this forum is that Roy is his friend. If Dan respects Roy's art, Then I would feel safe to say that Roy is also quite capable.

The situation is this. I.M.O. Martial tai chi is dying out. Every time a tai chi guy says something or shows something it's attacked. If that video was of a tai chi guy
it would be shredded. It just doesn't look like a honest response, maybe it is?

[Itten]

Hey Willie,
I can do this stuff with a conditioned demonstration uke. The goal here is to demonstrate a training method for developing internal structure, kokyu, in Aikido terms. The fact that most instructors, consciously or unconsciously, condition their students to be crash test dummies is not from nefarious motives, usually. As a student you need to feel it in order to do it. As repetitions occur the body, the grip, the intent all get grooved a certain way, not very useful for combat. I have also done these things with guys from police or military backgrounds but always in a teaching dynamic where respect for the "instructor" conditions in a similar way. I've tried this stuff on trained fighters and it doesn't work unless you introduce a clear intent to attack the centre which causes the grip to become defensive control rather than an attack or simply letting go. Part of this method is aimed at teaching how to attack the center in a straight line and the joints in spirals. When this is ingrained into the body in can be used in a variety of ways. For example, punching through a guard by spiraling through rather than crashing.
Some of these methods evolved from the study of the particular nature of the oval edge of a katana, not the cutting edge bit the middle, the shinogi. When2 swords meet in a straight line one of the methods of absorbing the opponents blade is to maintain central line pressure whilst rotating the blade up and in. If performed correctly the opponents blade is deflected momentarily and cannot withdraw or they will be cut. Frequently the only response is an equal blending spiral.
The human forearm has a similar shape to the shinogi so rotation whilst maintaining center pressure produce pain and balance disruption. It all makes even more sense if you grab my wrist (old aikido joke!!) because I'm holding a blade. You won't let go which make my life easier.
I have experienced this phenomena with a few good IMA practitioners. Their leading hand strike evokes a block if the intent is strong or I am unable to evade. The pressure towards my head causes me to stick just a little longer and their spiral/ straight line attack traveling down my arm to the target. Ba Gua makes use of this a lot.
I have no experience of Roy but what he is doing looks classically correct. The over response from the Uke is almost tai chi like huh? He is not so young, should he go all out sparring against an MMA guy to test his stuff? Really?
I am planning to try to make some vids in a few months showing and explaining what these exercises do and why they can be useful, I have always avoided this because whatever you do opens the door to some critique or other. It's not fighting, it wouldn't work on me, the structure is wrong blah blah blah. All I can say is I can make it work on a lot of people but so what it's just a demo of a training method.
Last little anecdote from Master Sam Chin. I was training with him and 2 of his instructors were working together trying to gain an advantage within the style of the system and at one point he stepped in and said, "don't spin, just whack".

[willie]

Hey Willie,

I have no experience of Roy but what he is doing looks classically correct.

I am planning to try to make some vids in a few months showing and explaining what these exercises do and why they can be useful, I have always avoided this because whatever you do opens the door to some critique or other. It's not fighting, it wouldn't work on me, the structure is wrong blah blah blah. All I can say is I can make it ".

I would say that it most likely is classically correct. However My views on internal power are quite different.

I feel that some good has come from this thread. No one is name calling and stuff like that.
I hope that you do create some video's on this type of content.
There is no reason why grown men can not discuss these types of Martial exorcises and try to find some common ground.
Thanks

[littlepanda]

interesting article

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.in/2013/1 ... -side.html

.

[Itten]

interesting article

Yep!!!
he says it better than I did, I'm net lazy

[Bao]

Very well written and interesting thoughts, but.... Sad to say this... But he clearly has no experience of the things he writes about.

[Itten]

bao, which part of the article are you referring to? teacher chi, as he calls it, is a very real phenomena. that does not automatically negate high levels of skill.
I have been asked as an aikido practitioner, "why do people learn to fall? Wouldn't learning to stay on your feet be better?"
Now I can answer that by saying that good ukemi leads to more freedom to execute fast, powerful techniques without injuring your partner. OK, true in part, but it also lead to endless demonstrations which are empty. This is often even more true in Japan than in the west. Making your teacher look good is not restricted to any particular art, its a human phenomena. I've have given a demonstration in Japan where I literally had to ask the ukes not to throw themselves, they weren't my students. that's not martial practice. I see the same thing in many Tai Chi clips. I have also felt some real internal power. It's out there but so is a lot of BS.

[Bao]

bao, which part of the article are you referring to? teacher chi, as he calls it, is a very real phenomena. that does not automatically negate high levels of skill.

I don't completely agree with this part:

It shows the student is trying (consciously or subconsciously) to aid the push by using his leg muscles. The problem is, it is hard to get a "lift-off" with a backward moment; instead the student's body does a "jackknife" upwards, with the student's body initially leaning forwards into the push (rather than away, as you might expect).
This is clearly the result of a "spring" from the student's legs rather than a push to the student at the chest level.

There might be tendencies, but it's like the endless "hopping" discussion. We hopped around in my early classes without anyone teaching us how to keep balance. Some things will look "fake", but some of the reactions have more to do with borrowing and using momentum, not student faking. There are a lot of faking and keeping the teacher from not losing face, agree. But if someone can't understand exactly why something looks a certain way, I find it a pitty if everything is put into the same box just because a person believe that there must be the same prerequisites behind everything he sees. Though there are good points and good thoughts in the article. But it's not 100% "there" yet IMHO.

I have been asked as an aikido practitioner, "why do people learn to fall? Wouldn't learning to stay on your feet be better?"
Now I can answer that by saying that good ukemi leads to more freedom to execute fast, powerful techniques without injuring your partner. OK, true in part, but it also lead to endless demonstrations which are empty.

Aikidokas usually say "uke must follow otherwise you can break your uke's arms". So Aikido is about breaking bones, not about following and throwing? Why then do you learn how to fall and throw yourself? I doesn't make sense for me.

"If something doesn't make sense, it's not true" - Judge Judy

Aikido is just an art made up solely for creating shows, IMO.